Bruce Lee – Myth vs. Fact

by Al Alvir

Like many of you, I grew up wanting to believe, in every way possible, that Bruce Lee was, and will forever be, the greatest fighter to have ever walked the planet.  I read the Tao of Jeet Kune Do and all his pamphlets, including the one about the one-inch punch.  I studied Jun Fan and believed everything I read about Bruce Lee.  I even put all of his fight clips into video and studied his moves.  When I went to college, I used Bruce Lee clips to make a video about the Ramayana, the ancient Hindu epic, and named it “Enter the Ramayana.”  Bruce Lee was martial arts’ Moses.  I saw him as Jesus. 

While I celebrated Bruce Lee, I vilified everyone who seemed to contest him.  It is the classic psychology of idolatry.  Chuck Norris, Bob Wall, Ji Han Jae, and to a certain extent, Kareem Abdul Jabbar, were professionals who I always would bash only because they were respected fighters and athletes who had proven themselves to the world in contrast to Lee – and Bruce Lee was, simply, not proven.  And because it continues to be a common hypothetical question of who would win in a fight between Bruce Lee or Mike Tyson, I learned to hate Mike Tyson because he was considered to be dangerous enough to be mentioned in the same breath.  Martial artists who were presumed to be lesser martial artists because they had always been mentored by Bruce Lee (e.g. Dan Inosanto) were easily accepted by me, as it was understood that they were to always be beneath him. 

In the martial arts world, Bruce Lee was widely considered a teacher exclusively, not a fighter.  Even in the martial arts world of sub-cultures and hero worship, there is a dueling school of thought that considers facts when gauging anyone’s worth as a fighter: fight record.  Is the martial artist’s performance quantifiable? Validated?  More than a few-men tournament?  More than some showy, inconclusive video clips?  Not just word of mouth and interpretations and opinions? 

When Bruce Lee was mocked for having amateur skills with the nun-chucks by a reputable nun-chukka expert, I made excuses for Lee.  “They are just movies, but in real life, Bruce would kick his ass with or without the nun-chucks,” I angrily retorted to the paper’s printed words and I forwarded my sentiments to everyone I knew.  Chuck Norris, to this day, diplomatically fends questions about Bruce Lee as a real fighter.  During the 1970’s, Norris hinted that Bruce Lee was basically good for a non-fighter, and many Lee-freaks wanted to murder Chuck Norris for saying that. Until I grew up, I had always bad-mouthed Chuck Norris for that fact.  Bob Wall accounted for not fighting Bruce Lee to the fact that Bruce Lee didn’t want to risk losing his reputation.  Wall, on the other hand, was a tournament fighter who risked his status at every bout.  Gene LeBell is credited for having his way with Bruce Lee.  Kareem Abdul Jabbar spoke about how Bruce’s size deficit was too much for Bruce Lee to overcome against him, even though Jabbar accepted Lee as the master martial artist; when they toiled around in the gym, Bruce Lee couldn’t do much to the 7’2 student.  These are all people who have views that could just as easily be pointed to hearsay, but they share two major differences with what hearsay is.  They are a unanimous group of people who figure to be fighters (plus one athlete) who have a system of standards, tournament and sport, and they can corroborate their stories (Bruce Lee has the luxury, as it is a luxury of myth, to be dead).  Wong Jack Man and Bruce Lee are known to have had a fight that has numerous accounts.  For all the accounts, however, there are a few facts that no one involved had ever been known to disagree with:  Bruce Lee made a statement that any Gung-Fu man could not beat him, Wong Jack Man was the sole challenger who wanted the contest to be televised, and after rumors abounded that Bruce Lee handled Man (who denounced the rumors), Man printed a rematch challenge for the public to view to which Bruce Lee never responded. 

Like any school or gym owner, I knew that Bruce Lee had to know what he was doing, but something in the back of my head wondered why he has no proof of being a fighter while the world accepts him as such, as Lee never bothered denying it.  I was curious as to how insecure Bruce Lee was and how his ego held him back.  More so, I wondered why such an expert on fighting would base his choreography on nonsense.  When I watched videos of Bruce Lee punching a heavy bag, I wanted to bury the footage and never mention it again.  I was a boxer who punched a hundred times better (in form) at the age of 15, and I didn’t want the world to get privy onto what I was noticing about my hero.  I never wanted to admit that the slow shutter speeds of those old cameras made everyone appear inhumanly fast.  When I read about the man he performed the one-inch punch against had bruised ribs from that single punch, I was slightly amazed, but I was more amused by the hyperbole.  I knew that it was impossible.  Plus, anyone who knows how to punch can perform this move – hardly a feat.

A million contradictory accounts of Bruce Lee happenings widened the gap from truth and myth when it should have done the opposite, narrowing the gap and increasing our understanding.  It is so astonishing how simple occurrences that were actually witnessed by normal people can get so out-of-hand ridiculous and made-up in time.  It becomes no wonder to me how the bible I read in the Catholic church had been interpreted and changed thousands of times.  And the thing about myth is that the stories can never simplify the happening – the dynamic doesn’t work that way.  If Bruce Lee were alive and told a story about how he lost a fight, the five people who witnessed it can spread a lie more easily than Bruce Lee would be able to spread the truth, as long as the truth was not as grandiose.  The key is that I, like the rest of Bruce Lee worshippers, wanted to believe every cool thing I read about the man.  I wanted to believe that his choreography was proof that he was the best fighter.    

Understand that this is a very human thing to do with the things we hold in high regard.  Mike Tyson became my favorite boxer after I had done away with my belief in the fantasy martial arts, and I’ve been prone to similar exaggerations about him.  I know that his knockouts sound even more brutal than they were when we note them in retrospect.  His knockouts are quicker when people recount them, and I liked that people regarded him so high.  And when he “bit half of Holyfield’s ear off,” I appreciated the vicious hyperbole and I didn’t offer a correction.  That’s what is happening with Bruce Lee, like any legend. 

I dare never to try to ruin Bruce Lee’s legacy, as I love what he has done for martial arts, and I respect him greatly, but because we have never seen him react under dire circumstance, beaten, hit with powerful strikes, we can never presume that he was a fighter of any sort.  Maybe he was, but unfortunately never had a chance to – or chose not to – exhibit it like real fighters do:  over and over again, building records (more than a couple tournaments) and humbling themselves to fight, and fight once more. 

To people who did see “whatever it is they saw” in regards to Bruce Lee and continue to hold their opinions high and refuse to let go of memories that are gradually perpetuating myths, I question them too:  “Could you be at all wrong?  At all?”

405 responses to “Bruce Lee – Myth vs. Fact

  1. First I’d Like To Say That I Watched The Video Labeled Bruce Lee Hitting A Heavy bag. If u see the full clip it is actually a student hitting a heavy bag. Then when he does come into view he shows him how to punch and I don’t think that it on the exact way to hit it but wanted to show that you can actually move the bag. I never idealize do Bruce Lee to the point of super human. So I can’t say that I have anything to knock down either but have researched anyone that is the best in their field. The most compelling evidence for how good Bruce Lee is the testimony of the ones he hung out with. In an interview the martial arts expert (sorry forgot the name but can be found on youtube) who said that if you want to know just how good Bruce Lee was know this we used to meet with him. Myself and a few others that were champions in various forms of martial arts and fight and he was able to beat all of us at the same time and do it under three mins. He went on to challenge people saying if you really want to know pick a fight with me at 70 and you can imagine Bruce Lee fighting five of us in our 20′s and you will have a good idea.

  2. A brick hitting you at forty MPA. HA so quick you will not see it coming. A small Man that will hit you harder than Mike Tyson. How Quick ? Quick Enough and actually more accurate then the best ping pong guys in the world. Ya hes the best Da … thanks guys for your help . BRUCE LEE .. He was the yongest Grand Master .. theirs no one on the planet with this skill set. Yep hes the best.

  3. Okay so the argument is whether bruce lee could actually do what was said? Lets stick to the facts. No myths just facts. The truth is that Bruce did get into fights. ALOT. Just think he was seen, not only here in the United States, but all over the world as a martial arts icon. And people all over the world tried to disprove his skill. For instance, when he was challenged to test his skills with the chukka he challenged the chinese ping pong world champs to a game of ping pong. On television. And beat them using a single set of chukkas. And yes I said them. He beat the doubles team by themselves. And yes they used their paddles. Lol. In the same demonstration he proved his focus and accuracy once again with the chukka by gluing a small matchbook striking surface to the end of his chukka and having matches thrown at him from 10 feet away. 10 matches were thrown and he lit them all. His form was his own and not the established form for the weapon. Thats wherethe rub came in. But do not be mistaken his form wasn flawless. As for his art itself, well it was his. He designed it. There are flaws but he had been developing it from a short life of experience. If given time, I believe it wouldve outshined any striking art that we now know. I have studied many martial arts ( ie. Kung fu, kenpo, ninjitsu, greko roman wrestling, tae kwon do, boxing, and of course jkd.) And I have been in many fights and for me the art that I fell back on the most was jkd. It is built to be effective in any situation and it combines power, speed, spirituality, accuracy, fluidity in motion and defense like no other martial art that I have known. The art of the intercepting fist. Has a nice ring to it. Lol. Now back to lee and his skills. Power: Bruce was known to hit with a force of over 1000 lbs. This is a proven fact. Scientists at universities in the United States and other countries ran pressure and impact tests on his punches and this was the consensus. Take that in contrast to the power that tyson was rated at ( 737 lbs) and you can see that bruce could puch harder than tyson. And we all know how tysons fights turned out when he landed a clean punch. 40+ kos thats how. And he had gloves on. Lol. Now on to his speed. Did you know that the average reaction time for a human being is about 4 thousanths of a second. That .004 seconds. Now thats fast. Now shortly before enter the dragon, bruces final film, he visited new york, home of the yankees and was doinga demonstration at madison square gardens as a promotion for the upcoming film. During the demonstration he promised to allow them to register his hand speed with a radar gun. They registered a speed of 138 mph. Now thats fast, but how fast? So lets figure it out. Bruce had a reach of about 3 feet, about 31 inches to be exact. So from shoulderto full extension his fist could make it to your face in les than 3 thousanths of a second ( about .00298 seconds) which means he could hit you faster than your brain could register it. Now thats fast. And remember,these are facts not myths. So lets add it up to a real world senario. In a real fight bruce could hit you before you could react, the blows could come from anywhere because of the lack of a set form, he could hit you with a punch that would land with the equivilant force of a buick hitting you doing forty…. in the face. And its not a question of IF he would hit you but when. His fighting style is all aboutcreating space and counterattacking when ground is lost or given. There is no true blocking in jkd. Only attack. And because of the ‘ bubble’ that is created as Lee put it grappling is made useless to the opponent. The only thing left is to strike and thats what we want you to do. In the real world there are no rules. No low blows. No judges and no referees. Jkd is not for the ring or the octagon it is for the real person in the real world. And whenever Bruce was tested in any way he proved himself. But because he is gone, peoplebwant to question what he did. But heres the truth. Without bruce, martial arts wouldnt have spread likebit did around the world but mainly here in the US. Bruce was a visionary who introduced the eastern world to the western and begged them to unite. This is the spirit of jkd. And the soul of Bruce Lee. If he were here now he would be the most dangerous man alive. And lets not forget, his original teacher was Ip man. And he was a proven fighter and the last true grand master. And he once said of a 16 year old bruce ” Given enough time his skill will eclipse us all.” He just didnt have enough time. But, in my book, he did what he was meant to do and god just collected him. RIP Master Lee. May heaven give you peace where we could not. Shi shi shifu

  4. Bruce Lee was fearless. He never fought in open match doesn’t mean he was scared. He invited everyone who wanted to fight him. He just didn’t care about rules. He was a martial artist. He didn’t play sport with you. UFC MMA are sports with rules. He fought with no rules perhaps he liked to live dangerously. Rules in sport gives you security. Bruce Lee didn’t rely on rules to protect himself. He relied on his speed (5 types of speed he mentioned. Combined all still faster than anyone in the world), his explosive power, he extremely strong yet agile body, his movement and his intuition/instinct.

    If he played in sport. the sport rules would have confined him to fight with guys with same weight of him. When he was already too good for any heavyweight champion, why would he want to fight lightweight guys? Winning some lightweight titles like this just to prove himself was stupid. He was already proven according to Bob Wall interview. Just that most champions who fought him back then were too embarrassed to reveal the truth.

    According to Bolo Yeung, Bruce Lee already prepared himself to fight Muhammad Ali one day. He just waited for Muhammad Ali to invite him in an open exhibition match. We never got to see it because he died in 1973. Muhammad Ali and Bruce Lee respected each other. Bruce Lee, Jhoon Goo Rhee and Muhammad Ali connected with each other.

    When you always fight with no rules, it sets you on alert all the time. One mistake can prove fatal. Bruce Lee fought like this all the time thus no room for mistake. What set him apart from others is that he was so complete until he was capable of fully aware/alert to minimize any mistake at all. This is real fight. Those inside the cage of MMA or UFC are not real fight. They are just games.

    To be fully aware of everything while fighting with no rules, It involves intuition thru spirituality. Zen calls it no-mind. Bruce Lee had deep understanding of Zen and Tao and all the spiritual thing. His reaction and movement were so fast simply because it was purely intuition. To be “pure”, you need to be spiritual. Because most people never understand zen or spiritual thing (actually not a thing) they dismiss it as myth. If you understand spiritual you won’t call Bruce Lee fake or myth. If you fully/deeply understand spiritual you would become a buddha.

    Thus you see all kinds of argument because most people don’t even know this. Bruce perfected himself physically, mentally as well as spiritually that set him apart from others into a different league all together. He appeared to have big ego, but deep down he was humble and willing to learn and “unlearn” – simplify techniques. We know how good he was physically or mentally. But spiritually? I don’t know as no one knows. Perhaps Bruce Lee himself didn’t even know.

    When Bruce Lee constantly put himself in life or death situation with no-rule fight, he began to understand something that most people don’t understand. The things that you don’t understand but he did gave him the edge. Most people have not a clue why his 5 speed combined was so fast. He understood life and death better than those MMA fighters as he live in it everyday. Some of those MMA fighters were street fighter. They have real fight experience. But they don’t understand life and death as deeply as Bruce Lee. Thus Bruce Lee is myth for most people. But those MMA fighters are no myth.

    You might laugh when I said Bruce Lee understood spirituality. How deeply he understood I don’t know. Same way like some people don’t know how good was Bruce Lee and why he was good. For you it was a myth. For Bruce it might be the same.

  5. I think this is an extremely fun subject however it’s time for me to close the situation here’s the deal Bruce Lee was a Street Fighter he was a killer this is what he trained for now I have special skills I have trained in judo karate shaolin kung fu and many others are started as a young boy of seven years old with my life until I hit 21 then I became a Father and husband now I have done plenty of training over the year’s. there are many different kinds of Fighters outer fighters nr Fighters and mid-range fighters Bruce Lee was a master at being out of fighter and a mid-range fighter this means he’s almost untouchable with his power and speed he would put you in any before you even think of charging him I know because I’ve never met any guy yet with grappling skills even close to being able to take me down and I don’t even consider myself anywhere near like Bruce Lee reason why I love bruce so muchis because I can relate I had an extremely hard childhood I had an abusive father for 13 years that would whip me beat me so I learn martial arts to take care of myself. Trust me Bruce Lee did the same thing I’ve had guys and grappling skills training with me only to find out they always lose and loose quickly usually within 15 seconds or less they never want to fight me again. Now when I was 28years old I could do 1,500 pushup every other day. Not to mention. Punching your face in for me was a joke now my kicks are just as deadly. Yep im quick. Yep I can be mean. So you say nowhere to go. Bull these crapling guy never even got ahold of me. I can kick so hard to you shin that your not moving anywhere. I I had bootes on I would kill you. Now I got in a fight with a guy with a baseball bat. I kicked his ass all and up the street. Yep I can take pain im gifted some guys eat it up like candy. Bruce is far better and greater then I could ever be or want to be. You see to be bruce comes a to hi a cost. This always mad him dangerous. The real question here can anyman handle him in a bar or a street. Because thats what he trained for.yes even if you could get ahold of bruce. Even then im not so sure if the other guy would take him down. You now joe lewis chuck norris and other great fighters. Went to bruce for training. Please the simple fact is this most guys that do not know how to fight talk crap about bruce. Or pretending they now what their talking about. The their the competition fights you know rule s. These guys what to make a style better then others so they take bull to.the bottom line bruce is not with us anylonger. If he was here to day he would be up their in age. How ever he would be amazing or dead. Because some times I felt like he push him self to much. But in fight.or even competing. He would rip you a new one .All my money would go on him… im not saying hes superman. But his fighting level is just to much. Man I would pay to see that one. Just to shutdown the people who talk crap.I would love to see him fight a big man.all men trust me he could show off some stuff that would surprise you. That as fokes. Just me iv trained for 35 years. 85% of all of us wish we could be BRUCE. Have a great weekend.

  6. I think this is an extremely fun subject however it’s time for me to close the situation here’s the deal Bruce Lee was a Street Fighter he was a killer this is what he trained for now I have special skills I have trained in judo karate shaolin kung fu and many others are started as a young boy of seven years old with my life until I hit 21 then I became a Father and husband now I have done plenty of training over the year’s. there are many different kinds of Fighters outer fighters nr Fighters and mid-range fighters Bruce Lee was a master at being out of fighter and a mid-range fighter this means he’s almost untouchable with his power and speed he would put you in any before you even think of charging him I know because I’ve never met any guy yet with grappling skills even close to being able to take me down and I don’t even consider myself anywhere near like Bruce Lee reason why I love bruce so muchis because I can relate I had an extremely hard childhood I had an abusive father for 13 years that would whip me beat me so I learn martial arts to take care of myself. Trust me Bruce Lee did the same thing I’ve had guys and grappling skills training with me only to find out they always lose and loose quickly usually within 15 seconds or less they never want to fight me again. Now when I was 28years old I could do 1,500 pushup every other day. Not to mention. Punching your face in for me was a joke now my kicks are just as deadly. Yep im quick. Yep I can be mean. So you say nowhere to go. Bull these crapling guy never even got ahold of me. I can kick so hard to you shin that your not moving anywhere. I I had bootes on I would kill you. Now I got in a fight with a guy with a baseball bat. I kicked his ass all and up the street. Yep I can take pain im gifted some guys eat it up like candy. Bruce is far better and greater then I could ever be or want to be. You see to be bruce comes a to hi a cost. This always mad him dangerous. The real question here can anyman handle him in a bar or a street. Because thats what he trained for.yes even if you could get ahold of bruce. Even then im not so sure if the other guy would take him down. You now joe lewis chuck norris and other great fighters. Went to bruce for training. Please the simple fact is this most guys that do not know how to fight talk crap about bruce. Or pretending they now what their talking about. The their the competition fights you know rule s. These guys what to make a style better then others so they take bull to.the bottom line bruce is not with us anylonger. If he was here to day he would be up their in age. How ever he would be amazing or dead. Because some times I felt like he push him self to much. But in fight.or even competing. He would rip you a new one. All my money would go on him… im not saying hes superman. But his fighting level is just to much. Man I would pay to see that one. Just to shutdown the people who talk crap.I would love to see him fight a big man.all men trust me he could show off some stuff that would surprise you. That as fokes. Just me iv trained for 35 years. 85% of all of us wish we could be BRUCE. Have a great weekend.

    • some things people have got to realize about Bruce in a no-holds-barred real fight…he thought that a fight should be over in 2 seconds once you were in striking range…stop and think just how fast, powerful, with incredible timing a fighter would have to be to do this to an extremely able opponent…Mike Stone gives a wee hint of it when he said Bruce was “Way too fast” for most referees to score properly in karate tournaments…James De Mile says it was like getting hit by a crowbar when Bruce “Exploded like atomic bombs going off” with the rapidity of a machine gun…the question is…could any of the Gracies cope with his phenomenally powerful and fast punches, eye gouges, kicks etc., etc., and still get hold of him?…i reckon in all their fights and sparring, they have never come close to facing a fighter with cartoon-like speed…it`s almost impossible to get to someone who possesses this as well as being incredibly evasive and also able to strike you at will…however, if they did get lucky and got a good grip of the wee man (Bruce) he`d be in big trouble unless he`d studied hard in their fabulous fighting methods…

  7. What if…

    Bruce Lee vs Jiu jit-su ?

  8. Thanks for all your replies regarding my previous comments about Bruce Lee and my opinion of him failing miserably should he have fought Royce Gracie.

    You need to take the myth away from the man. Now I’m not questioning the talent and dedication Bruce was known for, but there is no such thing as a super human. Bruce was a truly skilled man and ahead of his time, but he was not “unnaturally superior”.

    Now think back to the training Bruce went through to become what people believed he was…

    “The greatest fighter that ever was and ever will be, amen”

    Observe the training modern mixed martial artists go through in todays times to participate in the UFC or similar. If you can compare the two then these MMA fighters should almost be demi gods by yesterdays “Bruce Lee” standards… but they arent.

    They are just very skilled men in fighting and all equally human.

    I know this may ruffle a few feathers but I stand by my earlier comments whole heartedly – If Bruce Lee fought Royce Gracie AS IS without any further training, (Bruce was the super human fight machine remember) it would be an embarrassing moment for Bruce Lee in my opinion.

    He isnt in the matrix movie, he isnt the speed of a bullet, he would inevitably be taken to the ground within seconds and game over. Its hard to explain to someone who has never trained in Gracie jiu-jit-su, but if you are not familiar with it and end up in a fight against a Gracie practitioner then God help you.

    Seriously, Gracie Jiu-jit-su is a science and an art. If you are taken down at any timr you become completely helpless. You cannot move, you cannot get back up and its border line impossible to do so against a black belt or even lower.

    You can only wait to be choked unconscious or have your limbs brutally broken…and thats just the way it is.

    Im not trying to rubbish Bruce Lee’s legacy or disrespect him in any way because he was an amazing guy, but as a student of Royce Gracie I must call it how it is.

    Bruce vs Royce = fail

    Could Bruce 1 inch punch Royce in the jaw for a KO?

    Anythings possible but you cant knock someone out while you are flat on your back unable to move.

    Thank you and good bye.

    • I think this is a fun topic . The real question is could any man handle Bruce Lee in a real fight. You no in a bar or in a street fight. Because its what he trained for. So many different situations. Is really are for me to get the fact that in a real situation your going to even catch him.Iv studied all kinds of fighting. Their are guys who fight close.I call them the iner fighter. Their are guys who fight far away. I call them a outter fighter. Then their the med range fighter.no bruce is a pro at mid range and outter this making it really really hard to get ahold of him.. now I have trained with with guys ..in judo and other grappling skills.. they all way .the never even came close. My kick or punch to the head or leg was simply to much… now do me a favor put hard shose ir boots on thoses guys then tell me it you really think its going to happen. If I kick you with boots on to you freaken shin you will have so much pain your not charging me any longer.its that simple.this is y I not a big fan of mma.I had a guy over last we I had one kick with no shoses on I did not kickhard he said the pain is to much. Any way bruce rocks. He will put the real hurt on you then you will rethink. What the crap your doing next. Thats all fokes

  9. Bruce Lee as a marketing tool. Thats because most people think of him as the best. So we forget the rest. Most people think of MMA they think of Lee most people think of fighting they think of Lee.so yes people always say he was the best. Its funny at the time chuck norris held the record. We all still new lee was the best.when people put you so high up. You really dont have anything to prove. People who studied the Arts of fighting like Lee you say they where not fighters. Any guy who study s the arts that dose not compete is still a true fighter. Their are many great reason s y people studied the Arts of fighting. Like health ,Discipline, to be able to protect your self. To be confident, the list goses on. Now at what level you train at for some people of course is different. Bruce Lee was over the top on training. This is y we all see him as the best. What MMA Master. Knows how to play ping pong with sticks. Trust me Bruce was respect for this.. Catch Me if you can. He was a speed freak . He knows he was small speed was his way. Chuck Norris said Lee would not slow down. even after a Great work out he would keep training. It might of been his down fall. Lee had a great respect 4 Shaolin priests. The reason y they are so discipline. thus the reason for the movie with David Carradine called kung fu. He had great respect for theses guy.master s in real. War fare. Like weapon s. Skills. Trust me I know I studied under this stuff. So a guy you say cant be a real fighter unless he compete s. Is such silly. Hes competing every day . Just not in public. Any man that studied the arts are a potential fighter at what level is the question. There still a fight er. The word professional comes to me buy this. How much hart do you put in it.if its a %100 you are a professional. Lee is know to the world as a professional fighting machine. Because he put in well over %100 of his time in this. At home fighting. Maken a move fighting. When he was sleeping he was fighting. Its who he was. When you see him fight or move. Well its just no one else can do it better. So naturally hes the best. 1 bruce had plenty of real fight s he got in to only to destroy them. This helped people to know. He was real. Suger ray loved him. Jackie Chan loved him. Most fighters loved him. Y becouse next to him their is none else.

  10. I feel the need to share a story. When I was 16 years old I had a boy who was 17 started a fight with me. We were on a boy scout outing. I had known boy for a couple of years. When you walked in his room his room was coverd in 1st place trophies . I mean everwhere complete ly full of them. Write away I had respect for this kid. He knew I studied as a very young guy but like Bruce lee. I never competed. He got mad at me for somthing dumb. Their where planty of people around to see this.I remember throwing him down . He got up and he wanted more so a kick to heb leg an a quick more and down ge went again.it was kinda of a game for me. Anyways my point mma dose not interest me. I personally can tell and share more story s with you. Im telling Bruce Lee was that good. Almost like superman to me.

  11. Lets go over some details. Bruce did shadow boxing. Wing Chung. Trust me he knew how to strike.I studied as much as about him as I could as a young man. I remember seeing photos of him with swollen nuckles. From punching wood. He really was over the top. But he was not afraid to go their.finger eye gouache. He trained to kill people. Yes he learnt as he went though. Because thats what happens. Loving to learn pushed him. Finding out what he could dish out. And what he could take in. Im telling you is real fight that he got in to over being able to teach in the USA. Took him 3 minutes to winn. He was not happy with that at all. So you continue d to push him self. Thats y their no greater. At 32 when he passed he had a body of a 16 year old. Hes simple y amazing.

  12. Bruce Lee fighting system was to simplify. By simplify gives you more time for training the body in other ways. Like speed.endurance. flexing twisting. ..was he the best well.I think none greater. When he was young he was fighting for his life most people dont seem to get that. He even had a contract out on him. If your fighting for your life you will train like no other. If you look at his training please. So remarkable. For being so good he was really humble. He had respect for others. Iv studie kung fu. The first thing you learn is respect.

  13. Bruce Lee was a human being, an extraordinary human who dedicated his life to art of martial arts and fighting. I don’t see why so many waste their time trying to discredit the man. He achieved more than most could in a short span. Also the guy’s dead, so dumb ass renards like to say he wasn’t this or wasn’t that.

    Bruce has always stated that he was a student as well. He loved learning every style that he could use in his arsenal. Yes, his ass was handed to him when he first sparred with Gene LeBell, but even Gene said he wasn’t that in tune with grappling when they first began sparring but he ate it up later and became quite good at it.

    I’ve seen so called black belts in a real street fight get their asses royally kicked and I’ve seen black belts who could catch a punch, move their hand slightly and snap someone’s wrist. It all depends on how dedicated you are. Belts are that…just belts, but dedication is dedication.

    I’m not saying that Bruce is the toughest or un-defeatable. That’s lame to say as well. But, tournament fighting has rules. Street fights have none.

    All in all, Bruce’s philosophy was spot on – what works for you is the most important in an actual fight…tournament or otherwise. And Bruce had a profound influence on MMA style fighting in incorporating various styles. At the time, all the martial arts camps Karate, Kung Fu, Jujitsu, etc all tried to boast that their style was the dominant style. At least, Bruce went against the grain and said there’s a lot to learn from every fighting style.

    Those who keep saying that he shouldn’t be credited with MMA are those who have a hard time believing that a 135 lbs Chinaman could be one of the founding thinkers of going against the grain of the era. Give it up. Bruce was human, probably not the best, but pretty capable and stop trying to discredit someone who can no longer even defend himself.

    • MMA is related to UFC1. If you really think that Bruce Lee have a huge influence towards the MMA style of fighting, could you answer to those questions please?
      1) Why MMA did appear only twenty years after Lee’s death?
      2) Why there weren’t any Jeet Kune Do’s practitioners in UFC1?
      3) If Lee’s “philosophy” of fighting did pave the way to MMA, why the fighters that competed in UFC1 were stylists in one discipline instead of being well-rounded in every aspects of fighting?
      4) Did Bruce Lee organize an event like UFC1 where fighters of different “styles” competed?

      If you can give me clear responses to those questions, then I’d reconsider my view.
      Bruce Lee is famous for his movies, not his fights. Nowadays, Bruce Lee’s icon status is a marketing tool.

      • I agree that Bruce Lee was famous for his movies. He was a movie star. As a Martial Artist he was a head of his time. His Martial Arts philosophy is what Mixed Martial Artists discovered through years of combat. Bruce Lee figured it out before MMA even existed. That’s why Dana White calls Bruce Lee the father of MMA not because he is responsible for the creation of the actual combat sport known as Mixed Martial Arts.

        The whole idea of Bruce Lee being the father of MMA is a marketing tool because Dana White knows that people admire and respect Bruce Lee. That’s why he’s in the new UFC videogame as an unlockable character even though he never competed in the UFC. Bruce only influenced MMA indirectly through popularizing Martial Arts world wide. He does deserve credit for creating a fighting system that focuses on being well-rounded and having no limitations on technique. But he didn’t found MMA.

  14. bruce lee created a martial art system! jeet kune do! all these people that win trophies in tournaments are students of a fighting system. bruce lee created a system that is incredible…. be like water-bruce lee

    • Jeet Kune Do is a joke. He just took existing martial arts and labeled it as one. He didn’t “create” anything.

      • Jeet Kune Do is no joke. Bruce studied all of the major Martial Arts of the world and incorporated what he thought were the most effective techniques developing his own system of fighting which he called Jeet Kune Do, the way of the intercepting fist. His method was very creative and revolutionary for its time. Most Martial Artists thought their style was the best. Bruce recognized that styles had limitations so he aimed to create a Martial Arts philosophy with no style and no limitations.

        Bruce Lee: The best fighter is not a Boxer, Karate or Judo man. The best fighter is someone who can adapt on any style. He kicks too good for a Boxer, throws too good for a Karate man, and punches too good for a Judo man.

      • @ MysticNinjajay

        Has Jeet Kune Do ever been tested in fights like boxing, Muay Thai, karate or Judo?
        In the preface of the book Tao of Jeet Kune Do, it’s written that Bruce Lee considered that there was nothing new with Jeet Kune Do.
        The view of Bruce Lee about what the best fighter is makes me think he has barely practiced boxing, karate and judo.
        Jeet Kune Do is famous because of Bruce Lee, not because of his effectiveness.

      • Avenger…how can Jeet Kune Do be ineffective when it’s concepts are based on directness, simplicity and economy of motion?
        You said: “The view of Bruce Lee about what the best fighter is makes me think he has barely practiced boxing, karate and judo.” What view specifically are you talking about?
        Lastly, you have come her many times and badmouthed Bruce Lee. Which is quite laughable when one considers that you, a person with absolutely ZERO credentials make these these assertions, when professional Karate, Judo & Jiu-Jitsu champions who have faced Bruce Lee full contact, have claimed Bruce Lee’s combat skills were otherworldly. So the question that begs to be answered is, do we take THEIR word (they trained with Bruce Lee after all) on Lee’s skill or yours? I think you know the answer…

      • @Avenger

        Jeet Kune Do has been tested on the street by practitioners and there were a few representatives of it in early Mixed Martial Arts competition. MMA has validated a lot of the theories and philosophies of Bruce Lee on fighting so Jeet Kune Do is a proven effective Martial Arts system.

      • @ Nebula One

        I asked for facts and you presented me a mere theory. Boxing, karate, judo, and Muay Thai have been tested in many fights. What about Jeet Kune Do?
        Bruce Lee’s view on fighting is like the game rock paper scissors. If somebody can kick good enough, he’d beat the boxer. If he can punch good enough, he’d beat a judoka. If he can grapple good enough, he’d beat the karateka. If he can punch, throw and kick, he should be considered as the best fighter ever. That’s like the game rock-paper-scissors.
        Actually, it isn’t that simple. There are examples in which judo or jiu jitsu practitioners got the best against boxers. Just consider the match between Milo Savage and Gene Lebell in 1963 or the match between Royce Gracie and Art Simmonson in 1993 during UFC1. The boxers were submitted and lost. That contradicts Bruce’s opinion.

        There were indeed great martial artist who testfied about Bruce’s fighting skills.
        Joe Lewis stated that Bruce Lee was a martial artist with some fabulous ideas, but not a fighter.
        Mark Jacobs quoted Joe Lewis stating that Bruce Lee looked good in demonstration and in sparring with his students, but that he wasn’t really good when it came to fighting against others decent fighters. When Mark Jacobs told Gene Lebell about it, Lebell replied that he couldn’t disagree totally with Lewis’ opinion.
        Steve Sanders told that Bruce Lee wasn’t that good as a fighter.
        When Michael Eisner asked Chuck Norris if Bruce Lee and him fought against each other, Norris answered by chuckling : “No you know, I was a professional fighter”. Norris considered Bruce Lee as a good martial artist, but he implied that he wasn’t above a pro fighter such as him.
        Is that what would you call “otherworldly”?

        As always, I see that you prefer to badmouth me instead of bringing concrete pieces of evidence. It seems you’ve run out of arguments. Nice work, you wannabe martial arts genius.

      • @ MysticNinjaJay

        There weren’t any practitioners of Jeet Kune Do that competed in UFC1, the event that started MMA. MMA had nothing to with Jeet Kune Do.
        As for the story according to which some practitioners of Jeet Kune Do would have tested successfully their theories on the street, could you provide me your source?
        Thanks in advance.

      • @ Nebula One

        Royce Gracie actually defeated the boxer named Art Jimmerson (and not Simmonson that I wrote in my previous post) during UFC1 :

        http://www.mmafighting.com/fight/2811/ufc-1-royce-gracie-vs-art-jimmerson-one-glove-boxer-mma

        Sorry for this error. However, I still think that Bruce’s opinion on what defines the best fighter demonstrates his lack of experience in fighting.

      • @Avenger

        I didn’t say there were Jeet Kune Do representatives at UFC 1 but there have been in other UFC and MMA events. You can find some of these fights on Youtube. My comment about Jeet Kune Do being tested on the street is simply a given considering the fact that there are Jeet Kune Do practitioners and Martial Artists get in fights. I don’t think it’s accurate to say that Bruce Lee thought of fighting in the sense of rock-paper-scissors. His comment sounds like that but what he’s really trying to say is that the best fighter should be well rounded and good at all the major techniques, not that Boxers always beat Judoka in a rock vs. scissors sense. He’s just saying that the best fighter can adapt on any style because they aren’t limited to specific techniques. Mixed Martial Artists are the type of fighter Bruce Lee was referring to.

        As far as Bruce Lee’s fighting ability is concerned we can’t evaluate how good he is without watching him in real fights. Comments about his fighting skills are just talk. Saying he was otherworldly is no more helpful than saying he wasn’t really that great because he wasn’t a professional fighter. Both ideas are based on people’s opinions. I do believe that to get really good at fighting you have to actually fight. While Bruce Lee had some real life fights which eye witnesses saw he did not fight competitively. Sparring isn’t fighting so we can’t say that just because Bruce Lee was impressive in sparring or demonstrations that he was a great fighter. He was a skilled Martial Artist we just don’t know how well that translates in to real fighting skill. I don’t think he could beat world class Mixed Martial Artists like Anderson Silva or even someone his size like TJ Dillashaw. I doubt he could beat elite Kickboxers and Boxers as well. There may even be Traditional Martial Artists who are better than Bruce Lee. Bruce wasn’t a fighting God he was a man but he was a very skilled Martial Artist. I wouldn’t completely count him out given his reputation as a great teacher and his obvious physical fitness and Martial Arts knowledge.

      • Stuart Leggat

        Re Bruce`s sparring not being a real test – sorry to repeat myself, but check out once again my recent post below where a copy of Bob Wall`s interview gives a detailed account of just what went on in the “Brutal” sparring sessions between Bruce and anyone and everyone including many then world champions who just “Weren`t prepared” for the punishment he dealt out to them in his so-called sparring which Lee wanted to make as real as possible…it is a truly fascinating interview and if any doubters reading this can`t take in or refuse to believe what he says, it`s a waste of time debating here…

        The Bob Wall Interview:

        Interviewer: We know Bruce was an excellent screen fighter, but he could REALLY fight?

        Bob Wall: “Let’s get something straight, Bruce Lee was the real deal. I know alot of people think he was only good on the screen but they are wrong. Dead wrong! Many people have already had found out the hard way just how wrong they were!”

        Interviewer: How did he train to be such a competent fighter?

        Bruce came up with the idea to spar full contact making the training as real as possible.
        He fought with anyone that was willing. I’ve fought with Bruce myself a number of times, and had witnessed or had heard of many sparring sessions not just with other martial artists, but with champion Karate fighters, such as Louis Delgado, Skipper Mullins, Jim Kelly, Pat Burleson, Chuck Norris, Allen Steen and a few others. You have got to understand where these guys had come from in terms of practical self defense. While some came from the streets as Mullins and Steen had, most of these guys were used to fighting within the confines of a ring, so what Bruce was doing was a real wake up call for them.”

        Interviewer: What do you mean wake up call?

        Bob Wall: “Well, it’s like this…all great fighters have the same make-up in terms of intensity, commitment, will, drive and of course talent. Now, you have to remember that the type of fighting most Karate champions were used to, had rules and restrictions. It was SUPPOSED to be no contact to light contact, but people were always getting hurt, some quite badly, so they were used to contact. And even though many of these guys were really tough, I mean REALLY tough, and could take it as well as dish it out, they weren’t prepared for Bruce.
        Just the look on their faces was a sight to behold when Bruce would just move in and shut them down. They were used to trading punches and kicks with other fast and powerful opponents, and scoring on them frequently. You know, more evenly matched. I know it was hard for me to deal with the frustration when sparring with Bruce, and I know it was exceptionally hard for a lot of them, especially since Bruce never fought professionally.”

        Interviewer: It must have been embarrassing for some of these guys.

        Bob Wall: “Think about it this way…many of these guys were WORLD CHAMPIONS. They had faced and defeated the best in the business across the globe. They are proud fighters. Who wouldn’t be humiliated losing to a guy who has not fought professionally, and has no rank or certification to boot? It is my opinion that losing to Bruce in some ways was more devastating than losing a title fight. At least in a title fight, you know your opponent worked his butt off to get there, and it took a great deal of time. Many years of hard work, and paying your dues. Then you fight this little 140 pound guy and he just cleans your clock.”

        Interviewer: Can you really call them fights? I mean, sparring isn’t really fighting is it?

        Wall: “YOU tell these guys they weren’t real fights. It was damn brutal!
        In fact, most of these guys have never taken that kind of punishment before, but they sure learned the difference between what they were used to, and what they were learning from Bruce!

        Interviewer: Were there any rules, or did you really try and hurt each other?

        Bob Wall: “Well, we certainly didn’t want to see anyone get hurt, that’s just an inevitability sometimes. And no, the only rule was no following through with joint locks. If we did follow through, reconstructive surgery would be needed.

        Interviewer So Bruce fought with grapplers too?

        Bob Wall: “Bruce fought with EVERYBODY! Anyone who wanted to spar was welcome. We had people from every type of combat imaginable from punchers and kickers, to wrestlers, boxers, and everyone in between. Bruce loved to train, and we loved to train too. The list of people who worked with Bruce at one point in his life or another, reads like a who’s who in the martial arts community.
        I want you to understand that it wasn’t like Bruce came in and kicked everyone’s butt, and was all high and mighty. It’s just that Bruce could pick things up very quickly, and adapt what he learned into his personal way of fighting almost immediately. Now, don’t get me wrong, Bruce was learning right along with the rest of us, and I’m sure he would be the first to admit that.
        He once told me that if you ever think you’ve learned everything, your dead in the water. It just seemed to us that Bruce was a lot farther down the path to self mastery than any of the other people in the martial arts at that time.

      • @Stuart Leggat

        That is a very interesting interview. What is the source for that interview?

        Wall makes it sound like these sparring matches were full-contact challenge matches which would give some legitimacy to Bruce Lee as a fighter if he was beating up world champion fighters in these private sparring sessions. Still without a fight record or video footage no one outside of people who witnessed Bruce Lee fight for real know how good he really was. I do have to correct Avenger when it comes to Chuck Norris’ statements. Chuck said that he was a professional fighter to remark that he was on a high level. As for Bruce he said he didn’t know if he could have beaten him. He said they didn’t want to go there but that Bruce was good.

        Elsewhere Chuck has said that he and Bruce Lee would have done well at Mixed Martial Arts.

        I think that Bruce had the intelligence and athleticism to be a great fighter he just needed the fighting experience to be truly elite.

      • Stuart Leggat

        I got the interview and others after typing in to Google, Bob Wall on Bruce Lee

        Wall clearly says Norris and other world champions had a wake up call when they took part in their brutal sparring sessions with Bruce and were taught a lesson and had their clocks cleaned…Norris is like several other ex-world champions from that era – way too proud to admit a wee 140lb unrated guy would destroy them in a real fight or any other type of fight including so-called sparring…I can, to a certain extent, understand the embarrassment these guys must have felt and why they`d lie in their teeth rather than admit to anything else, but very fortunately for us, there were and are some, including Wall and Jim Kelly, who are honest enough to tell it like it was, without letting their egos get in the way…

        In another interview I heard the other day at youtube with, again, James W. DeMile, he described what it was like to be up against Bruce when he “Exploded into action”…Bruce believed that once you were up close to someone and within striking range, any fight should be over in around 2 seconds…and when Bruce exploded, it wasn`t like a machine gun rat-at-tat-tat type of blows hitting you…it was BOOOOOOOM!!!!!! BAAAAAAAAANG!!!! BOOOOOOOOOM!!!! “like atomic bombs going off and the blows hitting my body from Bruce felt like being struck with a crowbar”…some description, right enough..lol

      • Jeet Kune Do is a joke. He just took existing martial arts and labeled it as one. He didn’t “create” anything.

        By that logic a ford mustang is a joke because there was a Model T and Model A and many cars built before the Mustang. They just took existing concepts that were already there.

        Shakes head.

      • @ Stuart Leggat

        I’m afraid that you shall be more specific about this “interview”.

        First, MysticNinjaJay provided to us the interview of Chuck Norris by Michael Eisner I told about some days ago. Norris explained the training he had with Bruce were workouts, but not any sparring. That contradicts your “interview of Bob Wall”.

        Then, there’s an interview of Bob Wall by Jim Whitmore published in the magazine Deadly Hands in 1976. Bob Wall explained how he met and worked with Bruce Lee on the movies Way of The Dragon and Enter The Dragon. Bob Wall stated (page 9 of the preview) that he felt that Bruce Lee could have been a lightweight world champion though he wouldn’t be able to compete with Norris or Lewis though. He said that Bruce was very insecure and never proved himself worthy as a fighter. This interview of Bob Wall contradicts yours.
        http://issuu.com/illmatical/docs/bobwall

        Joe Lewis stated in Black Belt Magazine April 1985 that he trained with Bruce Lee from 1968 to 1969. He asserted that Bruce was one of the greatest martial artist he had ever seen, but that he’d have made a very poor full contact fighter. Joe Lewis asserted multiple times that he never sparred with Lee and his training consisted in workouts.

        Jim Kelly stated in his interview published in Black Belt magazine May 1992 that he heard some stories about some sparring sessions between Bruce and some great karate champions. However, he stated that he NEVER sparred with Lee. That contradicts once again your interview of Bob Wall.

        The testimonies of four pro fighters, Bob Wall included, challenge greatly the veracity of what you call “the interview of Bob Wall”. I think your interview is BOGUS. Show us your source, no more excuses. Put up or shut up.

      • Re the Bob Wall interview i posted – at the moment I couldn`t tell you where it came from originally…I got it after googleing Bob Wall on Bruce Lee…will try and find out the source when I have the time.

        Read your link to the other Bob Wall interview and found it fascinating…Bob, for the first time in any interview re Bruce, seems angry towards him and slaggs him off…I`d like to know when this interview was and suspect it may be something comparatively recent, when he`s much, much older and, as often happens with people as they age, they get very bitter and twisted in their outlook and opinions.

        I watched a video on youtube of a young Joe Lewis talking openly and honestly about Bruce Lee and he was very complimentary towards him…then watched him years later on video, when he was an old man, giving his opinion of Bruce and you wouldn`t think it was the same guy – totally bitter, resentful and non complimentary in what he had to say…I can understand this a bit as it must be really, really annoying etc., when throughout the years, most people`s first question to you as you tour the world and do your thing at seminars etc. is how good was Bruce Lee and could you beat Bruce Lee etc…Joe, and others, did all the training, fighting and took all the pain and still this wee, unrated, 140lb guy continues to get all the attention or much, much more than you and is also a legend in many people`s minds…this is understandably extremely annoying to proud, proud guys with big, big egos like Lewis, Norris, etc…Bob Wall is a businessman and is money-driven…I get the impression as he`s gotten older, he resents the success that the Lee estate`s enjoyed over the years and, in his old age, is now bitter towards anything to do with Lee.

        Re Bruce being able to wipe out the likes of Norris and other proven world champions…I`ll post the verifiable comments of another world champion Bruce coached back in the 60s – Louis Delgado – and also a bit from another well known martial arts guy who says Lee inspired him after he watched Lee spar with Louis Delgado at the big competition in `68…what he says about Lee`s speed is quite, quite amazing and, coming from a man, who`s spent his life in martial arts and made his name this way, makes what he says all the more awe inspiring…it leaves me in no doubt that Lee was a fighting freak who would have destroyed any of the champions of his day…if a world champion like Delgado, who beat Chuck Norris, says this, then it leaves you in no doubt what he`d do to the other champs…we can just be grateful that guys like Delgado are honest enough and ego-free enough to tell it like it was…

        The Comments of Loren W. Christensen on Lee:

        ” If I can modify the question to “what trait inspires me” I would say speed. Even after training for 42 years, I’m still inspired and awed when I see a martial artist – white belt of black – move with the speed of a cobra strike.

        I was at a tournament on the East Coast back in 1968 where Bruce Lee was a guest celebrity and coaching a tournament champ named Louis Delgado. I remember being enthralled at Bruce Lee’s speed as he skipped in and out of range popping back fists at Delgado. His fist was an absolute blur and he could move his entire body faster than most people can punch. He had only been in The Green Hornet TV series at that time and I remember thinking, “Man, this guy ought to be in the movies.”

        Can I pick ‘em or what?

        Lee inspired me.”

        The Comments of World Champ Louis Delgado on Lee:

        “”I have never seen anyone like Bruce Lee. I have met and sparred with several karate men, but Bruce has been the only one who has baffled me completely. I am completely in awe when I fight with him.”–Louis Delgado

        (Martial arts Legends magazine December 1995)

        This Other Champ Says This:

        “I have met Mr Lee and have had the privilege to work out with him several times. Although I have won 42 karate tournaments, I do not consider myself a match for him. His speed surpasses most of the black belts I know.” –Ernest Lieb

        (Martial arts Legends magazine December 1995)

        Mike Stone Said:

        “For his size and weight, Bruce was one of the strongest people – pound for pound – I have ever met. I think he could have beaten a lot of people much heavier and much stronger than he was. He would have done extremely well in competition; if anything, he would have been much too fast for a lot of the officials.” –Mike Stone.

        (The legendary Bruce Lee by the editors of black belt magazine 1986)

        Fred Wren Said:

        “I have never met anybody with more ability in fighting and knowledge than Mr Lee himself.” –Fred Wren

        (Martial arts Legends magazine December 1995)

        Don “The Dragon” Wilson & Sugar Ray Leonard say:

        “Bruce Lee was a martial arts genius” –Don “The Dragon” Willson.

        (Martial arts legends magazine January 1993)

        “Bruce Lee had lightning reflexes and he could move and thing and just pick his opponents apart. In a sense, my left jab comes from him. After watching Lee, I became more precise about landing my jabs on an opponents nose or between his eyes” –Sugar Ray Leonard.

        (Martial arts legends magazine January 1993)

  15. Thanks for your reply. Iv been studing for years.I believe if your guy can catch him.thats a big if.. if he can bruce would be back on he feet in no time. Its not the kung fu. Bruce keeps it very simple. You cant hurt what you cant touch. When bruce strikes you.it will freaken hurt. In real life hes is a big problem. The kicks will not be high thats all show. But his lower kicks will be deadly finish you off with the way of his fist. This will come like lightning. Just wondering how much endurance your man has. Because bruce will not get tired this is another problem. With your man charging at him bruce will youse this time to make him sleepy .. then Bruce will put him to sleep.. if it was a street fight I feel it would be a total joke. I guess will never know will we.. one thing I do know your kung fu guy was a joke.

  16. I just wanted to say something about your video. Bruce Lee . Would have killed that kung Fu Guy. And would have done it in less time. Bruce Lee is well know as a street fighter. With shoes on it would be a joke. How ever both theses guys way to slow. If you think bruce dose not know how to handle him self on the floor . You are badly mistaken. I might add. I think you man would not even.touch bruce. Way to freaken fast… their again dont ask me talk to the ping pong guys he payed again with nunchucks. At 130 pounds he way to fast. He will turn on his side and tournament your fighter. Sorry its just the way I see it. Your man is not going to lay hands on bruce. Its not just kung Fu. Its his size and to conditioning hes a freaken freak of nature. I agree with bruce fighting is the way of the fist. With his fist and the way he stands your guy will get murderd. Sorry.

    • Bruce Lee vs. Royce Gracie would be an interesting fight. Royce wasn’t very good standing up but he had a solid ground game. Bruce Lee trained grappling with Gene Lebell but I don’t think there’s any way that he was as good as Royce Gracie at grappling and we don’t know how good his takedown defense was. If he got taken to the ground against Royce I think Bruce would be in a lot of trouble.

    • If you want to know about Royce Gracie’s endurance look at his first fight with Kazushi Sakuraba which lasted over 1 hour. Gracie was very successful in early UFC competition because most of his opponents didn’t know what to do on the ground. Bruce Lee did train grappling with Gene Lebell but he wasn’t a professional fighter. He lacked the experience of real fighting that someone like Royce Gracie had tons of. Now give Bruce Lee some experience and I think he’d do well. Throw him in there with TJ Dillashaw or Renan Barão in his first UFC fight and I think he’d be in trouble.

  17. I studied the arts of fighting at a young age. The art of fighting comes in many forms . I was born in Wales in 66. I lived in California as a young man . Watching and learning from Bruce Lee and Chuck Norris. This many fighting forms im talking about their will never be none greater then Bruce Lee ! Now tell me who you think could beat him and I will tell you y they would not. These are some of your problem s dealing with Lee. You are crazy if you think you have better timing than him. You will not know witch way he is coming kinda like a Ghost. Your talking about a Guy thats. Will scare you as soon as you incounter him. This is what I know he had nothin to prove. Because he was that good. Their are many great fighters. But no one not any greater. Whats crazy is he had one leg much longer then the other his eyes wearnt the best. But he was the best. Iv studied all my life I would not be this dumb to challage him.

    • Bruce Lee is famous for his movies, not his fights. Why? Because he was an actor and a martial artist, but not a fighter. Bruce Lee wouldn’t be a match for any professional fighters of his time.

      • BRUCE LEE TEVE COMO MESTRE, NINGUEM MENOS DO QUE IP MAN.
        ISSO POR SI SÓ, JÁ EXPLICA TUDO. BRUDE LEE – SIMPLY THE BEST…!

  18. I find it almost laughable that you do not know that Bruce Lee was a high school boxing champ In in Hong Kong. Do you really think that his fighting skills are overrated? Perhaps you should read some more about the man you once ‘idolized’ before bashing and or sensationalize him anymore . Your true knowledge of the man are sorely lacking in both true facts and unbiased opinons. Your overall lack of understanding that just because the man didn’t have a professional fight record, doesn’t mean that he was not a deadly fighter.

    • Could you tell me who Bruce Lee did defeat during this high school boxing championship? When and where did it take place? Who did witness this event?
      Please quote me your sources because I’ve seen an extract of a video showing Bruce Lee working out on the bag : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aObGLTfJa1w&feature=yo
      Bruce Lee looks like a beginner in boxing with terrible technique.

  19. Here is one of the fights I speak of in regards to my Royce Gracie vs Bruce Lee comment below – http://youtu.be/jd1KDz1X7iE

  20. I have had the honor of training with Royce Gracie and my personal opinion is if Bruce Lee and Royce Gracie had a no rules fight it would be a very embarrassing moment for Bruce Lee. Have you ever seen the early Gracie videos on youtube where they invited kung fu experts etc to participate in a fight?
    The Gracies took them to the ground and literally just played with them like a cat with a mouse until they decided to submit them. Go ahead and look those fights up on youtube, it’s the old grainy footage ones inside the Gracie dojo surrounded by students, ask yourself what would happen if Bruce Lee were in that position. You would see and understand Bruce would not fare so well. Jiu-jitsu incorporates a whole range of chokes and submissions not seen inside the ufc because its done with the use of the gi. I had the honor of being chosen by Royce a few times to demonstrate a few techniques to the class….and even then….that man hurts!. I couldn’t swollow properly for 2 days afterwards.

    • OK, great! You’ve had personal experience training with Royce Gracie. You have not had any one on one training time with Bruce Lee. So, what gives you the insight to make such a final conclusion when you have no idea as to Lee’s actual skill? Jeez this gets old…

    • Read a copy below of an interview with Bob Wall, that I posted recently, re his recollections of the “Brutal” sparring between Bruce and world champions, boxers, wrestlers, judo guys etc., etc..and how this wee 140lb guy (Bruce) “Would clean their clock” and also how increadibly fast Bruce would learn from them and immediately incorporate it into his particular fighting method.

      I would only want to see Bruce fight a no-holds-barred scrap with any of the Gracie`s after giving him 6 months to a year to learn and master what they do best…many masters and top fight people back in Bruce`s day, commented how they`d show him a move and he`d come back a few weeks or couple of months later and perform it as good or better than them…I`d expect him to do the same with the Gracies, but then they`d be against guy who was said to be about the fastest hitting guy on the planet, backed up with increadible punching power and the all-important timing…Gracies fight guys who are fast or very fast, but nowhere near what Lee had to offer along with being increadibly elusive…I`d expect Bruce to do to them what he did to the others and clean their clocks, once he`d mastered their particular brilliant fighting methods…

      I`m going to post an interview with Sterling Silliphant, who, being a writer, could really express and describe in detail what Bruce did and how he could punch so phenominally hard, even from a distance of half an inch…it makes for rivitting reading and anyone wanting to improve their punching power would do well to try and copy what he describes…

      Edited Bob Wall Interview:

      Interviewer: It must have been embarrassing for some of these guys.

      Bob Wall: “Think about it this way…many of these guys were WORLD CHAMPIONS. They had faced and defeated the best in the business accross the globe. They are proud fighters. Who wouldn’t be humiliated losing to a guy who has not fought professionally, and has no rank or certification to boot? It is my opinion that losing to Bruce in some ways was more devastating than losing a title fight. At least in a title fight, you know your opponent worked his butt off to get there, and it took a great deal of time. Many years of hard work, and paying your dues. Then you fight this little 140 pound guy and he just cleans your clock.”

      Interviewer: Can you really call them fights? I mean, sparring isn’t really fighting is it?

      Bob Wall: “YOU tell these guys they weren’t real fights. It was damn brutal!
      In fact, most of these guys had never taken that kind of punishment before, but they sure learned the difference between what they were used to, and what they were learning from Bruce!

      Interviewer: Were there any rules, or did you really try and hurt each other?

      Bob Wall: “Well, we certainly didn’t want to see anyone get hurt, that’s just an inevitability sometimes. And no, the only rule was no following through with joint locks. If we did follow through, reconstructive surgery would be needed.

      Interviewer So Bruce fought with grapplers too?

      Bob Wall: “Bruce fought with EVERYBODY! Anyone who wanted to spar was welcome. We had people from every type of combat imaginable from punchers and kickers, to wrestlers, boxers, and everyone in between. Bruce loved to train, and we loved to train too. The list of people who worked with Bruce at one point in his life or another, reads like a who’s who in the martial arts community.

      I want you to understand that it wasn’t like Bruce came in and kicked everyone’s butt, and was all high and mighty. It’s just that Bruce could pick things up very quickly, and adapt what he learned into his personal way of fighting almost
      immediately

      • @Stuart Leggat

        How did you hear about this interview of Bob Wall? Could you quote me a source, please? Thanks in advance.

      • Stuart Leggat

        To read the different interviews of Bob Wall on Brice Lee…simply type into google bob wall on bruce lee and lots of stuff comes up…

        Also, for a really, really interesting read, type in `Stirling Silliphant on Bruce Lee`
        Silliphant was an author and screenwriter etc and could descrcibe, in detail, better than just about everyone else, what he observed about Lee in his many lessons with him…for instance: “When Bruce punched you, he brought through his full body weight behind the punch plus half the bloody universe”…what a great way of getting the idea across of just how powerful Lee punched…

    • Sorry Matt Gibb, but I’ll take Bob Wall’s opinion over yours.

  21. When you train for competitive fighting, you don’t train dirty, you train for rules. I’m not going to say Bruce could beat them, neither of you are really very good at this. He could compete with them, and probably compete very well. Would he win? A man can land a single strike with the odds against him (heavily) while still getting the KO. So yeah, he could lose. However he had a level of skill and adaptation abilities far beyond most people that have been in martial arts.

    This is an especially unfair argument, while the current top tier fighters are learning refined practices. Bruce also learned many other arts and took what he required from them. I hate when people go “master of blah blah, black belt of blah blah, blah blah blah”. That means the fighter learned everything in that area of martial arts. Bruce didn’t care about learning everything, just what he could incorporate in his style. So they may be masters of all this, does that mean they have what it takes to apply what works best for them? To take those specific techniques and alter them, as Bruce was renown for altering and adapting techniques.

    At the end of the day, all we can say is he was an amazing man and it’s a shame he didn’t officially spar.

    And Chuck has reasons NOT to go there. Respect for Bruce and his image. If you don’t think Chuck cares about his image, that’s laughable. Everyone cares about their image, whether they admit it or not.

  22. Stuart Leggat

    Absolutely FACINATING interview with heavyweight champion Bob Wall on Bruce sparring – “It was brutal” – with everybody and anybody including the top champions of the day and their shocked expressions when Bruce started really giving it to them…

    ” No, youve proven you are the one full of BS. Here it is. Are you trying to tell me youve not read it before already? Come on now!

    Interviewer: We know Bruce was an excellent screen fighter, but he could REALLY fight?

    Bob Wall: “Let’s get something straight, Bruce Lee was the real deal. I know alot of people think he was only good on the screen but they are wrong. Dead wrong! Many people have already had found out the hard way just how wrong they were!”

    Interviewer: How did he train to be such a competent fighter?

    Bruce came up with the idea to spar full contact making the training as real as possible.
    He fought with anyone that was willing. I’ve fought with Bruce myself a number of times, and had witnessed or had heard of many sparring sessions not just with other martial artists, but with champion Karate fighters, such as Louis Delgado, Skipper Mullins, Jim Kelly, Pat Burleson, Chuck Norris, Allen Steen and a few others. You have got to understand where these guys had come from in terms of practical self defense. While some came from the streets as Mullins and Steen had, most of these guys were used to fighting within the confines of a ring, so what Bruce was doing was a real wake up call for them.”

    Interviewer: What do you mean wake up call?

    Bob Wall: “Well, it’s like this…all great fighters have the same make-up in terms of intensity, commitment, will, drive and of course talent. Now, you have to remember that the type of fighting most Karate champions were used to, had rules and restrictions. It was SUPPOSED to be no contact to light contact, but people were always getting hurt, some quite badly, so they were used to contact. And even though many of these guys were really tough, I mean REALLY tough, and could take it as well as dish it out, they weren’t prepared for Bruce.
    Just the look on their faces was a sight to behold when Bruce would just move in and shut them down. They were used to trading punches and kicks with other fast and powerful opponents, and scoring on them frequently. You know, more evenly matched. I know it was hard for me to deal with the frustration when sparring with Bruce, and I know it was exceptionally hard for alot of them.
    Especially since Bruce never fought professionally.”

    Interviewer: It must have been embarrassing for some of these guys.

    Bob Wall: “Think about it this way…many of these guys were WORLD CHAMPIONS. They had faced and defeated the best in the business accross the globe. They are proud fighters. Who wouldn’t be humiliated losing to a guy who has not fought professionally, and has no rank or certification to boot? It is my opinion that losing to Bruce in some ways was more devastating than losing a title fight. At least in a title fight, you know your opponent worked his butt off to get there, and it took a great deal of time. Many years of hard work, and paying your dues. Then you fight this little 140 pound guy and he just cleans your clock.”

    Interviewer: Can you really call them fights? I mean, sparring isn’t really fighting is it?

    Wall: “YOU tell these guys they weren’t real fights. It was damn brutal!
    In fact, most of these guys have never taken that kind of punishment before, but they sure learned the difference between what they were used to, and what they were learning from Bruce!

    Interviewer: Were there any rules, or did you really try and hurt each other?

    Bob Wall: “Well, we certainly didn’t want to see anyone get hurt, that’s just an inevitability sometimes. And no, the only rule was no following through with joint locks. If we did follow through, reconstructive surgery would be needed.

    Interviewer So Bruce fought with grapplers too?

    Bob Wall: “Bruce fought with EVERYBODY! Anyone who wanted to spar was welcome. We had people from every type of combat imaginable from punchers and kickers, to wrestlers, boxers, and everyone in between. Bruce loved to train, and we loved to train too. The list of people who worked with Bruce at one point in his life or another, reads like a who’s who in the martial arts community.
    I want you to understand that it wasn’t like Bruce came in and kicked everyone’s butt, and was all high and mighty. It’s just that Bruce could pick things up very quickly, and adapt what he learned into his personal way of fighting almost immediately. Now, don’t get me wrong, Bruce was learning right along with the rest of us, and I’m sure he would be the first to admit that.
    He once told me that if you ever think you’ve learned everything, your dead in the water. It just seemed to us that Bruce was alot farther down the path to self mastery than any of the other people in the martial arts at that time.

    • MysticNinjajay

      @Stuart Leggat

      Nice interview, Stuart. If only Bruce Lee had recorded some sparring matches with these world champion fighters on video. Bruce Lee has been introduced as the mystery fighter to be featured in the video game EA: UFC. Now everyone can play as Bruce Lee against elite Mixed Martial Artists. I can’t wait!

      • Stuart Leggat

        Hi,

        Absolutely no way would most of those PROUD world champions have agreed for film of them being tought a brutal lesson by Bruce to have been shown…possibly honest Jim Kelly and Bob Wall, but can`t see any of the others agreeing to it…as Bob saiys in his interview, getting beat by Bruce was in some ways much harder to deal with and definitely much more embarrassing, than getting beat in a world title fight…

    • MysticNinjajay

      @Stuart Leggat

      I’m sure it would have been embarrassing for them to lose. If they didn’t know they were going to lose it would have been nice for Bruce to make an archive of some of these sparring sessions. Real fighting was treated differently back then. Indeed Martial Artists did not want to be embarrassed so full-contact sparring and fights was done in private. Today so many people have video cameras and everything is out in the open.

      • Stuart Leggat

        Ok…on another subject, here`s Jessie Glover describing a guy from Glasgow as the only person he`s ever come across in a lifetime of travelling the world, who had similar speed, power and timing as Bruce, his hero…Jessie says watching Tommy Carruthers train is just like watching Bruce back in the day…Tommy says he learned his lightening-fast power punches and kickes by watching Bruce`s movies…his Gym is just 10 minutes from me so defo got to make the time to see him in action to get a real idea of what it was like to see Bruce do his thing…

  23. Gene LeBelle was a judoka and catch wrestler that Bruce was training with. Of course he could kick Bruce’s ass. The key is to get Bruce off his feet. But Bruce was learning from Gene.

  24. Hi Everybody,

    I`d like to invite you to connect up with one of the few remaining original students of Bruce at his Facebook page…I`m referring to the guy who states that Bruce was indeed unbeatable, James W. DeMile. The link is at the bottom of this page.

    As you`d expect, at his page, James talks a lot about Bruce and everything about him that made him a fighting freak and he may well answer any direct questions you have re Bruce and may also help persuade some of the many doubters here as to just how much of a fighting machine Bruce really was.

    Most of the original students and people who worked with Bruce personally are fast dying off so make the most of this guy while you can by asking to be a friend and then put your questions to him and see if he replies.

    One of the recent posts at his page is very long and detailed and one of the wee pieces of interesting facts was that Bruce would get students or whoever, to stand with their hands up at their face and 4 inches from each cheek…Bruce, from 7 feet away, would close this distance and touch them on the side of their head before they could block him…quite a feat, but just a small bit of the many interesting things he speaks of…one other thing in this post was that Bruce, whenever he trained, would train as if he was training for the Olympics and never anything less was given in his routine…

    Look forward to seeing you at his Facebook page,

    Stuart

    https://www.facebook.com/james.demile.7?fref=ts

    • Hi Stuart Leggat,

      If I understand well, this James DeMile would assert that Bruce Lee was unbeatable. Nobody is unbeatable, dude. Besides, this DeMile didn’t boast to have been an heavyweight boxer with a record of 118 wins? There aren’t any boxing records of a boxer called James DeMile. That’s not really a good start for his credibility.

      • Stuart Leggat

        I would also say no one is unbeatable, but from what i`ve read about Bruce, it would seem he was pretty close to it and that is truly amazing for a wee 135lb guy.

        James W. DeMilne was an unbeaten heavyweight boxer in the US Air Force when he happened to come across a young 18 year old Bruce giving a demonstration and I`d like you to take the time and read the account by James of what happened when he tried to punch Bruce at that first meeting.

        I am now friends with James at his Facebook page as well as recently becoming friends with thee formidable Mike Stone so tune in to James` page at Facebook and read his account of meeting Bruce for the first time. I`ll include a link for his page below and also include a copy below of that meeting with Bruce…it makes for truly fascinating reading.

        https://www.facebook.com/james.demile.7?fref=pb&hc_location=friends_tab

        Facebook
        Stuart Leggat
        19 February · Edited
        Photo shows James on left with Bruce Lee and the rest of the original students

        It was an honour and privilege to have one of Bruce Lee`s original students and friend, James W. DeMile, accept a friend request from me within the past week at facebook…i`ll include a copy below of what James says about his first face to face meeting with a young 18 year old Bruce, when he was invited by him to try and land a punch on his smiling face…keeping in mind that James was then an ex- undefeated, 220lb heavyweight airforce boxing champion with an extremely fast jab and Bruce was his usual 135lb self…it makes for fascinating reading…

        What also makes for fascinating reading is James’ own bio at his page, from tough, very early childhood, to young and wild adolescent and the critical breaks fate threw his way which lead to a chance encounter with Bruce, thus opening up a whole new world of opportunity, way of life and thinking for him…

        My first encounter with Bruce was my introduction to humility.

        In late 1959 I was going to Edison Technical school, in Seattle, which was a school for adults who needed to make up credits to go on to college. I was in between classes and was passing the auditorium and noticed a sign saying “Asian day studies”, which was talks about the different Asian cultures.

        Curious, I went in and sat far back from the stage. A young oriental guy was leaping around the stage making odd sounds. He would jump high into the air, spin around, make flashing actions with his arms and land in some pose that looked like a Preying Mantis about to attack a bug. This went on for a few minutes with him flying around the stage like a drunk butterfly. Finally, he finished bouncing around and went up to the microphone. He went on to explain what he had just demonstrated was a fighting style called Gung Fu and was practiced throughout China and Hong Kong as a deadly form of self defense.

        This statement amused me. So when his talk was finished I wandered up to the front by the stage where he was talking to a small group. The group was about 50/50 male/female. I smiled to myself as he was talking in a very animated way about Gung Fu. How,for hundreds of years the peasants had used it to fight the bandits who roamed the countryside attacking villages. They were not allowed weapons so had devised Gung Fu as a way for close quarter combat.

        At some point he noticed me with what must have been a stupid grin on my face. He smiled slightly and asked if I had any questions. I knew this was a moment to look good in front of an audience so I said in a sarcastic way, “kid, we don’t fight like bugs over here. Fighting isn’t a dance, it’s serious and someone is going to be hurt”.

        His smile got a little broader and he said, “No kidding”. He moved towards me and stopped about an arm’s length away. Now picture this. I was about 5ft 10’’ and 220 pounds. Bruce was about 5’ft 7’’ and roughly 135. I was 21 and he 18.

        Continuing to smile he said, take a punch at me. Now, I had been an undefeated heavyweight boxer in the Air Force and had very quick hands and decided to teach him a lesson, since he was stupid enough to keep his arms down by his side. I thought I would just flick his forehead with a fast jab.

        I moved into a loose stance and fired a left jab. Bruce’s movements were a blur as my jab was caught up in a cyclone of action. I felt myself being jolted as he flicked my jab aside, caught my other arm, and in a flowing motion planted both arms crossed on my chest like I was dead. In an act of panic I tried to leap back and away from him. He was like a bad smell, I could not get away. No matter how I moved, backwards or side to side, he stayed with me while maintaining pressure on my locked arms. I finally stopped when I hit the edge of the stage. Before he released me he tapped on my forehead and asked, “Is anyone home?”

        Wow, talk about learning humility the hard way. All I could hear, other than my own heartbeat, was the chuckling from the group. Embarrassment is an understatement. I did not know whether to run to the toilet and flush myself down or try to hit him again. Seeing his smiling face, relaxed and ready for anything, I opted for the toilet. Better yet, I became one of his first students in America.

        Bruce, without knowing it, was a scientist. His way of looking at the martial arts was quite different than any other practitioner. He wanted to be the best martial artist there ever was. He was not interested in how old something was or how many trophy’s an instructor had, he was only concerned about what would work for him. In order to accomplish this he challenged everything he saw with questions. What was the purpose of the technique? Was it simple, could he do it without a warm-up? Was it efficient, or does it have unnecessary moves. Lastly, would it work for him. These were his initial thoughts. Then he would analyze the technique to see if he could improve on it. — with James W. DeMile.

    • It helps to put DeMile’s accounting into perspective as well. He replied about his own record to someone at this site : http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=93420

  25. This whole debate is really like trying to argue a mute point on either side. Bruce Lee is dead. He wasnt involved in competitive martial arts. No one keeps a record of street fights. That being said. It was always my understanding that Bruce Lee didnt compete because he didnt consider competitive martial arts to be real fighting. Which may sound like a convenient copout and perhaps it was. But if you read tao of jkd, youll notice that bruce lees philosophy about fighting is not very clean. I mean its poetic enough, but it doesnt read like a boxing manual. What i got out of it was : hurt them before they hurt you, and hurt them bad enough so they wouldnt think of trying to get near you again. Would Chuck Norris beat Bruce Lee in a fight based on points? Absolutely. Would he win in a fight to death?. Hard to say. Id put my money on Bruce but you never know. As for Mr. Lee and shutter speeds making him appear quicker, Im not sure how much that helped. I have heard countless testaments as to how seemingly inhumanly fast he was. And i believe his fastest recorded punch was something like like 4/20s of a second. Shutter speed or not, thats pretty f’in fast. I dunno. I can see how you can argue his prowess as a fighter. Theres no documentation, plenty of room for speculation. I do however find it funny that his detractors speak about a man who is passed and cannot offer rebuttal. And a man that means more to the martial arts community than anyone in the past 100 years maybe with the exception of his master. That point I believe is hard to argue.

    • We don’t really know how good of a fighter Bruce Lee was and will never know because he didn’t record himself in real fights and isn’t alive today to compete. We can only speculate. I think he was a damn good Martial Artist by the standards of his day and in his prime could beat up most people in the world past and present. He was a small man so he’d probably lose to bigger, stronger Martial Artists including Chuck Norris. Size matters when skills or equal but he also might have surprised us and come out on top.

      I believe he had a chance of beating up world class Boxers in a street fight because they are only proficient at punching but they might also knock him out. I think he would lose to world class Mixed Martial Artists because they are more well-rounded fighters. A professional fighter is superior to a Martial Artist because they actually fight and Bruce Lee would not be an exception to this rule. He spent his time teaching and acting rather than actually fighting so while he was well-trained in Martial Arts and in great shape he’d likely lose to modern MMA fighters. That takes nothing away from the greatness of Bruce Lee that’s just realistic.

      • Bruce Lee wasn’t a fighter. He was an actor, a good demonstrator for martial arts and a good teacher but not a fighter. Bruce would beat world class boxers??!! ROFL!! Have you seen the video showing Bruce Lee working out on the “heavy bag”? He looks like a beginner with horrible technique. He would have been crushed by world class boxers such as Sugar Ray Robinson or Muhammad Ali. You confuse the man with the myth.

      • Stuart Leggat

        Just watched part of another interview at youtube with Jim Kelly where he talks a bit about Bruce actually sparring with some big champion heavyweight martial artists and says quite emphatically that Bruce would do this with any weight of opponent and it wouldn`t matter in the slightest – they didn`t stand a chance, Bruce was “Untouchable” with incredible speed and timing…go to this interview at the link below and fast-forward it to around 24 minutes when he starts to talk about Bruce…

  26. the dude cant fight at all..lol total nonsense..

  27. Bruce Lee hands down trainer harder than any professional fighter. Not only did he train in martial arts, but he was largely into bodybuilding and making his muscles as dense as possible, which he succeeded at. Aside from both of these training methods, he also trained his spiritual and mental fortitude as well to become the all around greatest example of peak human shape of mind and body. Not only could he kill most people in a real fight, and yes I mean kill, but he would also not be phased by hard hits as much as anyone else because half of his training was focuses on strengthening every aspect of his body, especially muscle density, which takes away a lot of the power from heavy hitters and can even cause them to start punching softer. Arguments contradicting this are just stupid as Norris, Jabbar, Schwarzenegger, and more all praised Lee for everything he did and his dedication to perfection. Do some real research, not just movies that aren’t meant to portray real fighting anyway. How Statham fights in the movies is NOT how he would fight in real life. The flashy moves just wouldn’t work in real life, but I’m sure he is very tough. No one does or will ever compare to Bruce Lee. ‘Nuff Said

    • @Joe Co

      What you said about Bruce Lee’s training is all true except I don’t see how you can make an argument that Bruce Lee trained HARDER than Professional Fighters. What did he do that they didn’t do? Professional Fighters do strength and conditioning training. They work hard on improving muscle density and definition. The one advantage they do have over a Martial Artist like Bruce Lee is that they compete at a high level against other professional fighters. That’s the key issue here. Bruce Lee trained hard but he rarely fought and when he did he fought nobodies.

      Bruce Lee was very intelligent and his spiritual growth was well beyond most Martial Artists and Professional Fighters but that doesn’t necessarily make him a better fighter it just means his lifestyle was exceptional. To be good at fighting you have to fight. I’m sure Bruce was good but he was a human being. He had his limits.

    • you sound like an idioit fanboy mr jo co. im a bruce lee fan to but give him enough respect to accept him as human and not god. nuff said

  28. Bruce Lee’s training is far beyond the spirits of most of the fighters he is compared to.Ironically MMA was introduced to the western world by Bruce.

    It is’nt true that Bruce never showcased his skills for public appeal,infact there are even videos of his single finger push ups on youtube

    And coming to his fighting style,his movies are the encyclopedias of effective fighting

    and being the trainer of jabber and being someone who can crack ribe with a gap of 1 inch space,I dont think the comment mentioned which refers to jabber commenting bruce,is true to any extent

    • I don’t consider Jeet Kune Do and MMA to be the same thing. MMA is a sport. Jeet Kune Do is Bruce Lee’s personal philosophy on Martial Arts. Bruce was clearly ahead of his time and he incorporated techniques from a lot of different fighting styles in to Jeet Kune Do but Jeet Kune Do was Martial Arts theory while Mixed Martial Arts was a proving ground for what techniques worked in a real fight which evolved in to a modern combat sport.

      I don’t think Bruce Lee trained harder than modern Professional Fighters or necessarily the top Martial Artists of his day. I think the movies have glorified and mystified him to an extent. He was an impressive individual. He was in great shape and articulate. He also displayed some Martial Arts abilities in demonstrations he just didn’t fight publicly against world class competition. I think a Martial Artist of Bruce’s caliber can beat a Boxer but a Mixed Martial Artist is a whole different animal. He didn’t have any advantages over the Mixed Martial Artist who trains full-contact as a profession.

  29. You’re all nuts. Bruce held back for the movies and the few tournaments he was in. Because he never practiced for sports like everybody you’re worshiping. He only practiced practical combat skills and mostly offensive combat. If he didn’t hold back he would’ve killed someone! And about his death he was murdered after he fell asleep by Dracula who scared of what would happen if they ever squared off in a fight to the death. And anyone who doesn’t believe that should be locked up in a Looney bin.

  30. Dudes: I’tell ya all this. We all saw Bruce Lee as a striker. So, just whip out your entire collection of Bruce Lee videos or CDs and play them all. Look out for any high roundhouse or reverse roundhouse kick by BL that could come to the mark against one by JCVD, Dolph Lundgren, Gary Daniels, Scott Adkins, Daniel Craig, or Jason Statham. You won’t find one. Cos he simply hasn’t got one. Game over.

    • A high roundhouse or spinning back kick, any of that fancy showy stuff is worthless in a fight. I’m not here to defend bruce as a fighter but all who trained with him said his actual fighting style was nothing similar to the showy high flying stuff he did on/for film. As for his skills it shows that many top fighters came to train with him.
      As for actual fighting? We’ll just never know. You can have all the skill and athleticism in the world but add in a glass jaw and you’ll get a poor fighter. Regardless, he was the single best promotion martial arts ever had, he was an amazing physical specemin, athletic as hell, very intelligent, and way ahead of his time in how he viewed the way martial arts should take the best and most usefull from every art and leave the useless behind. All these characteristics of Bruce Lee ARE provable. Assuming he had a good chin I think it’s reasonable to expect he’d have been a formidable fighter within a reasonable limit close to his own weight class and in his own era. As for todays fighters, the art of practical mma has just progressed too far and is ring proven for him to be competitive in mma sport combat. In a real world combat scenario though? MMA has no teeth. Deadly or disabling/crippling moves are not there. I think Bruce or any “true combat” specialist would have the advantage. Look on youtube to see Dana White and several top ufc fighters get messed up by the US marines combat teachers at some base somewhere. It’s all there to see in 3 parts. The ufc boys don’t do well at all in real world no rules “it’s your life or mine” combat situations.

  31. @Nebula One

    “For the record, if you want a bite to work against an attacker, it is never wise to just bite. One should tear a chunk of flesh from the body. Even if they do not acknowledge the pain right away, they’ll be mortified when you spit out a big chunk of what was once a piece of their body. I know that from experience!”

    how was that experience, if you don’t mind to develop a Little bit. All i really know is, since you can Train eye jab (the partner uses googles) and up to one point the groin strikes (the Partner has protection and of course the intensity is controlled), biting is nothing like you can train. This is instinct, you either have it or not. I really hope you will not bring me the Vunak method with meat slices placed under shirt, really…is funny. If Tyson bit Hollyfield in the ring, nothing would stop him to bite in the street while clinching. If Hollyfield headbutted him repetitively under referee eyes, he would do it easier outside the ring. Also the grappler being in control/dominant Position it is much more easier for him to attack the eyes, troth, spine cord or to bite.

    Talking about other fouls…it seems that pretty much nobody Trains no rules. Perhaps you saw Human Weapon Krav Maga. There are pro krav maga practitioners, members of Military and different Special Forces. Wach the sequences before the test of Jason. Although they are fully protected, they stay toe to toe trading punches, but aparently they don’t Punch to the head. Then the instructor gives to Jason a list of rules ” no low side kick to the knee, no groin strikes, no eye gouging, no attack to the troth….and so on”.

    Also about Vunak, because i heard many saying he would eat pro fighters because he trains no rules. But as i once said, the fouls may help if the actual skills are comparable with the opponent.

    here is a Video of him doin some sparing Demos, illustrating among other the straight blast. But what can be seen put under real question his skills even in fron of a good amateur fighter. The Show belongs to him, they were his assistans, students, not willing to fight back. And still he god countered full square several times in a manner that in a full contact match would have been as many knock downs (some even KO). 12:27, he eats a left hook in plain, 12:40 full countered, 17:11 same thing. And again, they most likely weren’t even willing to do that.

    Finally i would say, the US army choosed to train grappling i guess not being willing to suck as fighting and also the use of foul techniques shouldn’t be an excuse on why wouldn’t be needed to Train grappling and basically to train to became all rounded.

    • @ Sorin

      Sorin: “biting is nothing like you can train. This is instinct, you either have it or not. I really hope you will not bring me the Vunak method with meat slices placed under shirt, really…is funny.

      No I wouldn’t do that to you. It’s quite simple really, just do what the carnivores in the animal kingdom do, bite and tear the flesh away!

      Sorin: “If Hollyfield headbutted him repetitively under referee eyes, he would do it easier outside the ring. Also the grappler being in control/dominant Position it is much more easier for him to attack the eyes, troth, spine cord or to bite.”

      Agreed!

      Sorin: “Talking about other fouls…it seems that pretty much nobody Trains no rules.”

      There are schools out there that teach this if you look. There are no rules in a street combat environment, so it is very wise to train that way. If you do, you will get conditioned to the brutality.

      Sorin: “Also about Vunak, because i heard many saying he would eat pro fighters because he trains no rules. But as i once said, the fouls may help if the actual skills are comparable with the opponent.”

      Absolutely ridiculous! The ONLY way one can form an educated opinion about something or someone, is to have some factual evidence to support the claim.
      I’ve never seen Vunak fight, nor have I ever read anywhere where a competent fighter saw him fight. Just because one trains in a no rules curriculum (good idea), does not make him a good fighter. To be a good fighter, one has to fight all out, no holds barred. THEN you will be prepared for the worst case scenario!

      Sorin: “The Show belongs to him, they were his assistans, students, not willing to fight back.”

      OK…let’s call a spade a spade. His students WERE fighting back. That was the whole idea behind the demo. Clearly, Vunak left the shots in that he took in an un-edited video. This is admirable, as he wasn’t trying to make himself look invincible. He surely could have! However, one would expect this type of behavior from someone who is honestly attempting to show real combat techniques. In real combat, there is always a chance you are going to get hit very hard. Maybe even multiple times. It’s how you react to it that dictates one’s survival as a fighter.

      Sorin: “And still he god countered full square several times in a manner that in a full contact match would have been as many knock downs (some even KO). 12:27, he eats a left hook in plain, 12:40 full countered, 17:11 same thing. And again, they most likely weren’t even willing to do that.”

      You are correct in that it COULD happen that way. Then again, who knows… we can only speculate. I clearly remember when Muhammad Ali used his rope a dope against Foreman, and everyone (myself included) thought he had lost his mind. Ali took one hell of a lot of punishment before Foreman finally wore himself out. That’s why one cannot make assumptions in combat. ANYTHING can happen!
      As far as not willing to hit Vunak? It’s not these guys first rodeo. They knew precisely what they were doing…

      • MysticNinjajay

        @Nebula One

        Nebula One: “You are making my point precisely! Silva has the best striking accuracy in “The UFC”. The UFC has a very limited group of fighters competing at any time in any weight class, as does every MMA organization. And considering fighters from other organizations around the world, from what I’ve read on other forums, many feel that the overall quality of fighters in the UFC is not the best of the bunch. The number of high quality fighters Silva will face in a career lifetime in the UFC is so miniscule they are insignificant when compared to all global MMA competition.”

        I disagree. The cream of the crop in MMA is in the UFC right now. Look at the rankings for Top 10 Mixed Martial Artists on Sherdog and other major MMA websites. The UFC has nearly all of them in every weight class. Most of the smaller organizations serve as developmental grounds for the UFC. When A fighter becomes successful they seek a contract with the UFC. That’s where the big money and greatest competition is. This wasn’t always the case but all of the UFC major competitors except Bellator has fallen and Bellator doesn’t have anywhere near the talent the UFC has. Just look at the rankings of credible websites.

        Anderson Silva has been fighting the best competition available at Middleweight for years.

        Nebula One: “However, one has to wonder what the heck he was up to in this clip? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwDqz2P0YTw

        He was showboating, mocking his opponent and got caught. That was very careless of him and I hope he learned his lesson. He better not do that in the rematch or ever again.

        Nebula One: “Now, compare the career of say Fedor Emelianenko to Silva’s. This guy really impressed me because he had proven himself a champion in a wide variety of MMA organization arenas over many, many years. I.e. Pride, Rings, Bodog Fight, M-1 Global, Yarennoka, DREAM, Affliction, StrikeForce and so on. It’s no wonder Dana White wanted him in the UFC so badly! He was killing everybody!! His MMA record (according to Wiki) is 35 wins and 4 losses. That is a fantastic record, especially given that he fought such a wide variety of fighters from many different organizations. I understand Silva had fought in a few other arenas outside the UFC as well, but not near as many as Fedor.”

        In my opinion the number of MMA organizations you fight in doesn’t mean anything. What matters is the quality of competition you face and how well you perform against them. Fedor’s best fights were in PRIDE and he did do very well. But after PRIDE fell he fought some questionable competition and then his Strikeforce run was a miserable failure as he only won one fight and lost three fights in a row. I feel that Anderson Silva surpassed him as the Greatest of All Time. Until he recently loss he was on an unprecedented winning streak, a winning streak that was mostly in the UFC but against very quality competition. Nearly all of his fights were championship fights and he beat won contender after the next. Fedor had a longer winning streak but he fought a lot of cans and has-beens along the way. Silva’s was more impressive to me. Anderson Silva has more Top 10 wins than Fedor and is certainly the fighter of the decade if not the greatest ever.

        Nebula One: “You see, there’s the rub. You are with all due repsect, very ignorant to the way in which Lee had trained. If you read ANYTHING from Dan Inosanto about his days training with Bruce Lee, he mentions their implementation of full contact training time and time again. In fact, Lee introduced full contact sparring at Ed Parker’s 1967 Long Beach tournament. Nobody had seen anything like it up to that point.”

        I’m well-aware of this but notice that I said full-contact FIGHTING not sparring. This is the event you are referring to:

        The protective gear certainly helped Bruce put on a revolutionary demonstration however this sparring session is incomparable to full-contact fighting in a combat sport like MMA. Bruce Lee didn’t have the same level of full-contact fighting experience as professional MMA fighters who both spar full-contact and fight full-contact. Now MMA has rules but a Martial Artist who spends 90% of his time training isn’t a better fighter than a Professional Fighter who fights top competition several times a year. They’re just not. And that’s what Bruce Lee was, a Martial Artist not a Professional Fighter.

        By the way check out this demonstration and tell me honestly which one you find to be more impressive.

        I see more fluid combinations and an altogether superior engagement with less protective gear than that of Bruce Lee. His form of full-contact sparring was revolutionary for the time but it has been surpassed.

        Nebula One: “I get it. No one here is talking about point fighting.”

        Well you were when you were talking about Karate champions of Bruce Lee’s era being better strikers than Mixed Martial Artists when it was all they did. Surely you don’t think Chuck Norris was a better striker than say Anderson Silva when this is what his point Karate fights looked like.

        If you meant full-contact Karate than nevermind but that’s what I thought you meant.

        Nebula One: “You and I have a complete opposite view of the words ‘real combat’.”

        No, I agree with you that a real fight isn’t a combat sport with rules. A true fight has no rules. But you have to admit that modern MMA competition is closer to a real fight than anything Bruce Lee did on a regular basis. There are probably MMA fighters with more street fights than Bruce Lee had.

        Nebula One: “Always a possibility…just not a probability imo.”

        How could Bruce Lee counter the grappling skills of a Mixed Martial Artist who is a submission specialist when he never competed in grappling? Certainly he would lose in an MMA fight. In a street fight I don’t think he dirty tactics would work as well as you think. It’s more probable in my opinion that he gets submitted.

        Nebula One: “Astronauts and military pilots know precisely what current flying military technology is, and what is not. They are very familiar with what is normally the skies at any time. Yet, these scientists, who have no flying experience whatsoever, and are not familiar with the skies, call it hogwash. Now, which one would you believe?”

        I would appeal to logic in this situation and simply ask where the evidence is for alien space craft entering our atmosphere. Do we really need the word of pilots to determine what can be seen with the naked eye or a video camera? Likewise without having seen Bruce Lee fight I simply appeal to logic on his fighting skills based on what is known about his training methods and fighting experience or lack thereof.

        Nebula One: “I have to ask you, what information are you basing this opinion on?”

        I’m basing this opinion on everything I know about fighting and Bruce Lee’s experience and training methods. He did have some revolutionary ideas about Martial Arts including dispensing with styles and focusing on and utilizing the most effective techniques, stripping away the inessentials. He did have some revolutionary training methods including full-contact sparring. But a lot of his Martial Arts philosophy was based on theory and demonstrations rather than real fights and the few real fights he did have were mostly against nobodies and Martial Arts masters with even less real combat experience than he had. Now when you compare that fighting experience to Mixed Martial Artists who train to fight for a living and test themselves against top competition Bruce Lee simply didn’t have equal fighting experience. I believe based on this fact that he would lose to most of the top Mixed Martial Artists his size and bigger.

        I don’t doubt that during his lifetime he was a great fighter compared to other fighters out there I just don’t think he was better than the best that are alive today.

        Nebula One: “With all due respect, you seem to have almost no idea as to Lee’s actual combat skill. Bruce Lee trained CONSTANTLY! You have to remember that Lee’s ma movie career only spanned a few years at the end of his life. Even then he trained regularly. Far more often than pro fighters at any rate.”

        But how often did he actually FIGHT? That’s the real acid test. The random encounters Bruce Lee had and his training sessions don’t compare to having a 30 or 40+ fight record finishing most of your fights by knockout or submission. There are some real destroyers in Mixed Martial Arts who simply had more fighting experience than Bruce Lee.

        Nebula One: “Bruce Lee WAS a mixed martial artist, and trained more realistically for life threatening scenarios than what is being done in mixed martial arts tournaments today.”

        I agree that training for sport and training for life are two different things. Some Mixed Martial Artists also train for self-defense and come from Martial Arts backgrounds with more street fight oriented training methods. Hell some MMA fighters are marines who have actually killed people in real combat and even those guys are the best Mixed Martial Artists out there! There’s a profound difference between training for the local mugger and training to fight the best professional fighters in the world. Bruce Lee was a Martial Artist who blended techniques from different fighting styles but he wasn’t a Mixed Martial Artist in the sense of a modern professional fighter who competes in the sport called Mixed Martial Arts. He trained similar to one but didn’t have the same level of fighting experience.

        Nebula One: “In fact, Dana White considers Bruce Lee the father of mixed martial arts, which really pisses off Gene LeBell! If you do some good in depth research on Bruce Lee, you will understand this. There are plenty of excellent books and videos out there from people who actually trained with him. It will be a real eye opener for you if you do!”

        Many Martial Artists could be considered the father of Mixed Martial Arts. Dana White said that more for promotional purposes. Bruce Lee has a big name still today so it’s very marketable to associate him with MMA and the UFC. Now he did articulate a philosophy on Martial Arts that has been validated by the UFC. But Jeet Kune Do isn’t Mixed Martial Arts and Bruce Lee is certainly not the founder of the modern combat sport of Mixed Martial Arts. He wasn’t training to create a sport just a hybrid fighting form that was his personal approach to developing as a Martial Artist. His cultural influence and dedication to the Martial Arts should be respected by anyone with an interest in Martial Arts.

        I’m not as equally sold on his fighting prowess. I would like to believe he was damn good, as good as his movies but no one is as good as a movie character. I’m not convinced that he was the best fighter ever because he didn’t do enough fighting to have that level of distinction.
        I do think if he were alive today in his prime he could still whoop most people’s asses including world class Martial Artists but I believe Mixed Martial Artists have surpass the Martial Artists of old including Bruce Lee. Not because they are biologically superior but because of the way they train and the level of competition they’ve faced that has sharpened their skills.

  32. @Nebula One

    “With all due respect, you seem to have almost no idea as to Lee’s actual combat skill. Bruce Lee trained CONSTANTLY! You have to remember that Lee’s ma movie career only spanned a few years at the end of his life. Even then he trained regularly. ”

    to train is not meaning to Train more, to do more conditioning to start “again” to practice his techniques after a vacantion, it is not like this. To train would mean to make his updates. He would definitely have to do it. The proof is, his training was pretty much constantly altered, he did in late ’60 different things than in middle ’60, in early ’70 different things than in late ’60 and so on. And all that was in a about 10 years period. What can we say about a 40 years, from ’73 until now?

    “If you do some good in depth research on Bruce Lee, you will understand this. There are plenty of excellent books and videos out there from people who actually trained with him. It will be a real eye opener for you if you do!”

    it is really unfair how many BL fans use to think. If someone is skeptical and plain and simple can’t put him on the pedestal of invincibility, or is convinced the fighters evolved and they are right now better than those back then, including Bruce Lee, then the only reason they think like this is because “they didn’t do their researches”. Surprisely or not, i saw many such of guys knowing actually much more about Lee than many of his fanatical fans, even more than many of JKD practitioners. Also i saw they are usually much more open minded than the second category. I saw his movies and i read pretty much all his biography in paper Format since late ’80. Right now i think i can say i saw all documentaries about him. Bruce Lee Fighting Method, Tao of JKD, BL between WC and JKD and other such of books aren’t unknown for me. And indeed, they oppened my eyes and helped me to see the real Bruce Lee, not a fictional character. And i am still absolutely convinced he would definitely would have today to come up to date in comparison with modern fighters.

    • @ Sorin

      Sorin: “The proof is, his training was pretty much constantly altered, he did in late ’60 different things than in middle ’60, in early ’70 different things than in late ’60 and so on. And all that was in a about 10 years period. What can we say about a 40 years, from ’73 until now?”

      If you read through my posts, you’ll see that I said the same thing, Lee was constantly evolving throughout his adult life. However, one will get to a point where the excellence of a fighter no longer relies on an amalgam of knowledge of techniques, but rather innate reactionary skill. As Bruce Lee himself had said, there are only so many ways a human being can punch, kick or execute an armbar etc. etc. Bruce Lee: “Unless human beings have three arms and four legs, then you would have a different style of fighting”
      No doubt had he lived, he would have gotten heavily into BJJ and other forms of grappling, but I’d be willing to bet that he would have learned it long before the Gracies ever came into prominence in the early 1990′s. He was a voracious student of the martial arts, and given the fact he would have all the money he would ever need to travel the world at his leisure, he would have sought out instruction in myriad styles of martial arts. In fact, if a book was ever written on BJJ while Lee was alive, he probably had it. So it’s quite possible that he would have had some knowledge of it while he was alive. As you may know, he virtually had a library of the combative arts.

      Sorin: “If someone is skeptical and plain and simple can’t put him on the pedestal of invincibility, or is convinced the fighters evolved and they are right now better than those back then, including Bruce Lee, then the only reason they think like this is because “they didn’t do their researches”

      You can go from forum to forum, and read where people emphatically state that Lee would get his butt whooped by today’s MMAs.
      This belief is based on ignorance. Why? because they can’t possibly know just how good Lee really was. In fact, they CAN’T know, they weren’t there, plain and simple! Those of us who had never fought with him or witnessed him in action, have no evidence to support such an opinion to the negative.
      On the other hand, we have much evidence to the positive via the testimony of some truly legendary fighters and Masters. I say again for the umteenth time, it would be idiotic to dismiss the opinions of these great fighters just because we don’t like what they say. Quite a lot of them were street fighters before they were professional competitors, so they have that insight as well. To me, that means a great deal as it is a whole different mindset when one’s life is on the line.
      Now, if you are ignorant as to how dangerous the streets can be, take a walk through Chicago or Detroit at night by yourself, and see how well you do when you get jumped.

      Sorin: ” I saw his movies and i read pretty much all his biography in paper Format since late ’80. Right now i think i can say i saw all documentaries about him. Bruce Lee Fighting Method, Tao of JKD, BL between WC and JKD and other such of books aren’t unknown for me. And indeed, they oppened my eyes and helped me to see the real Bruce Lee.”

      That’s all well and good, but it’s just not enough. If you want to know just how good Bruce Lee really was, you have to talk to the people who trained with him as I have. They are the only ones who would know. I’m basing my opinions on their testimony.

      Sorin: ” And i am still absolutely convinced he would definitely would have today to come up to date in comparison with modern fighters.”

      What information have you obtained to lead you to that conclusion?

  33. @ Nebula one

    You stated that pro fighters such as Steve Sanders would have admitted that there was nobody in Bruce Lee’s leage as a fighter. Listen to this interview of Steve Sanders :

    Steve Sanders claimed that Bruce trained for movies and wasn’t that good of a fighter. I don’t know what are your sources but your assertion seems unfounded.

    “Bruce Lee was only concerned with training for a scenario with no rules”. It was probably why Bruce showed his martial art skills in choregraphed fights in his movies…

    Bruce would have used dirty tricks against a grappler? Forget it, pal. Gerard Gordeau tried to bite Royce Gracie when the latter took him to the floor during UFC1. Gracie chocked him. Very effective indeed.

    “In fact, as pure strikers, I’d pick many Karate champions of the past to wipe the floor with them. Why? Because striking is all those guys did!”. Keep dreaming. Challenge Norris or Lewis in their prime, bigmouth and you’ll be very sorry. Norris was also proficient in judo, Taekwondo, Tang Soo Do. Lewis was proficient in Greco Roman wrestling, karate and hand-to-hand combat.
    Bruce Lee was a joke compared to them.

    You only believe in whatever will enhance your delusions on Bruce Lee.

    • @ Avenger

      I thank you for posting that interview with Sanders! Unfortunately, he is just another martial artist now in the category of ‘The Code of Silence’ that Jim Kelly spoke of in his interview.
      In the late 1960′s, Steve Sanders had made quite different claims than he did in this interview, so his motives had changed, just as Vic Moore’s had.
      At least with Moore, you can see on video, that he was dumbfounded by Lee, put his head down and smile in disbelief, then bow to him.
      We can clearly tell that Sanders had a falling out with Bruce Lee at some point (I was unaware of this), because he said he wouldn’t ‘go into it’. That should tell you right there, that contempt is the motive behind his words. It would be an entirely different story if Sanders said the things he did and was friendly with Lee, as there would be no motive for him to make something up.
      If you want to know how Sanders felt about Lee when he was alive, go to Ebay and buy the old Blackbelt magazines from that era. They do come up for sale on occasion.

      Bruce Lee had a falling out with Mike Stone and Joe Lewis too, and what have they said since Lee’s passing regarding his combat skill? Think motive.
      Hell, even Chuck Norris has changed his tune since Lee had passed. Norris talks about Lee not being able to ‘block’ his spinning heel kicks in his book ‘The Secret Power Within’. To show how ridiculous the statement is, not only are spinning heel kicks easily avoided (as Lee did in WOTD), but Lee advocated parrying or avoiding all together, as blocking has the potential for tissue and bone damage. One of the few people that Lee had a falling out with who maintained his integrity was James DeMile. He tells it like it was, regardless of the situation he found himself in with Bruce Lee. In fact, DeMile was carrying a gun when the falling out occurred, and said Bruce Lee was so angry with him, he thought he might even have to shoot him!
      In any case, the point remains that there were far too many professional fighters and Masters in complete awe of his skill to dismiss it as hogwash. If say, 50 people of high martial art caliber say that Bruce Lee was in a league of his own in regards to combat skill, it certainly outweighs the opinions of a handful of other high caliber martial artists who say he was not. Especially if there is a reason to alter the truth!

      • Re DeMile recalling his falling out with Bruce, do you have a link to the full story or was it in an old Blackbelt interview?

      • Sanders is another one martial artist of the “Code of Silence”? What are you talking about? Bruce Lee never tested his fighting skills against a worthy opponent, and his training video proved he couldn’t be compared with professional fighters such as Mike Stone, Chuck Norris or Joe Lewis :

        See how his punches aren’t dangerous and how his side kick is slow.

        Consider this video showing Bruce making a demo of Gung Fu, and not what some would call “full contact sparring” :

        This is ludicrous. How could there be any contact with all those protective outfits? Even Black Belt magazine mocked this performance :”Ressembling men from Mars in weird protective outfits, gung fu sensei Bruce Lee of Green Hornet fame and his partner demonstrated this ancient chinese martial art” (Black Belt November 1967 p.48).
        There isn’t any revolution.

        You wrote :”Norris talks about Lee not being able to ‘block’ his spinning heel kicks in his book ‘The Secret Power Within’. To show how ridiculous the statement is, not only are spinning heel kicks easily avoided (as Lee did in WOTD), but Lee advocated parrying or avoiding all together, as blocking has the potential for tissue and bone damage”.
        You mix apples and oranges. Lee could avoid easily Norris’ kicks in the movie Way of The Dragon because this fight was scripted and choregraphed by…Bruce Lee! Besides, Bruce hired Norris in this movie.
        You really think that Bruce could avoid or block Norris’ kicks easily in reality?
        Norris defeated easily Motoo Yamakura, the karate champion of Western Japan and a Goju stylist, during the “All American Karate Championships” organized by Henry Cho in 1967. Yakamura tried to punch Norris but got hit each time by Norris’ kicks. Norris scored at least a dozen of times. Check it on Black Belt October 1967.
        This japanese karate champion was helpless against Norris, because Norris’ kicks had been delivered very quick and with tempo!
        If a japanese karate champion didn’t succeed to block Norris’ kicks, Bruce Lee would be even more unlikely blocking it!
        Get back to reality, daydreamer! Norris was way out of Lee’s league.
        Stop confusing Bruce Lee with the characters he has played in his movies.

        You can rely on as many as biased testimonies as you like to confort your delusions on your idol, Bruce Lee has never proved himself worthy by fighting against skilled opponents.
        The video of his training and his demo of Gung Fu even demonstrates that his skills are very far from the ones of a pro fighter. Pro fighters such as Norris and Lewis have proved their worth in combat, so stop comparing them with a showman like Bruce Lee.

        So DeMile, this tough “pro-boxer” and merciless 225lbs street fighter was afraid of a shrimp like Bruce that weighed 140lbs to the point to carry a gun whenever Bruce scolded him? ROFL! This DeMile is really a prank!

  34. @Stuart Leggat

    don’t forget Joe Lewis in his interview in Bruce Lee The divine wind said:

    “Joe Lewis – I learn fast. I made black belt in one year in Okinawa in three different styles. I am a fast learning. I can get all your stuff in a matter of weeks, and I mean anybody who can fight. I worked with Bruce less than two years before we grew apart. We used to work together for 6 to 8 hours at a time. I would be at his house at one in the afternoon, and not leave until maybe ten that night. Is that one lesson? Bruce was not a fighter. He was an actor and a teacher. He was a great teacher. ”

    and in his interview in Temple of the Unknown:

    “* Were his skills as good as they’ve been written – NO.You must understand that people writing about somebody they didn’t know makes it difficult to write with absolute truth.You’re speaking from someone else’s observations rather than first hand experience.certain writers tend to embelish and sensationalize”

    Also in his interview on “Fighting Master” :

    “Bruce Lee told me that he wanted to prove to the world that the Chinese martial artists were superior to all the other races, the Koreans, the Japanese, and in particular, the Caucasians. At that time, no one knew that “Enter the Dragon” was going to become a major $300,000,000 mega film. My advisors told me not to do martial arts films period. Bruce Lee was a five-foot, seven inch, 138 pound, non-combat type martial artist. I was strictly into combat and competition. I was almost six feet tall, 200 pounds. I didn’t understand the point of why he wanted to ask me to allow him to beat me up in the film to prove this personal point of his.”

    What Joe Lewis always kept to say, indeed, is that Bruce was a great martial artist, as knowledges, technique arsenal, talent, inventivity, etc.

    It sounds something like “Bruce was the greatest martial Artist or at least the leader candidate for this title”. But he also always said, that’s not one and the same with being a great fighter.

    Now you alone can decide whether you continue to trust Lewis words.
    Normally if you trust his words in that Video you quoted, then you should trust his words in those interviews. If you dismiss him in these interviews, then for the sake of consistence, you should dismiss him everywhere, including that video interview, or to give it (the quote) the same meaning, as Lewis spoke about Bruce as martial artist, not as being the best as fighter.

    • I’m of the opinion that to get really good at fighting you have to actually fight. That’s why professional fighters from full-contact combat sports are the best. They do the most fighting at the highest level out of anyone else in the world. Bruce Lee trained hard but he focused more on the expression of the Martial Arts through his movies as well as teaching rather than competing and sharpening his fighting skills against other fighters.

      I have no doubt that he could fight. In fact it’s unrealistic to believe that a life-long committed Martial Artist can not fight especially one that had a realistic approach to fighting like Bruce Lee did. How good he was is speculation. Some of his supporters say he could beat bigger men even fellow Martial Artists who were bigger. I don’t doubt that because I know that smaller men can beat bigger men when their skills are superior. Now whether Bruce Lee could beat great fighters including fighters that are bigger than him is the real question.

      Realistically he was a human being so he could lose. He was not a super hero. He was not invincible. I think it’s highly unlikely that if we took a prime Bruce Lee and pitted him against everyone who has ever lived that he would beat everybody, especially professional fighters from Mixed Martial Arts and Kickboxing. Even from Boxing, while a more limited form of combat you can win a fight with just Boxing. I give Bruce more of a chance against Boxers because he trained in more techniques than they do and I believe a Martial Artist can beat a Boxer, even those that don’t compete in full-contact combat sports. Ultimately I think Bruce Lee should be respected more for his cultural influence than his fighting prowess because his fighting skills weren’t proven. His friends and supporters can say whatever they want, the ultimate proving ground when it comes to fighting is to actually fight.

      I personally think he was very good but certainly beatable and not the best fighter ever. What we know about him makes that in my opinion the most reasonable observation.

      • i would also add that most of martial artists and martial arts practitioners who never were involved in competitions or sparring with valuable partners tend to be weak at combinations and usually they think a technique ends the fight (or maximum a short combination…2 at max, rarely, 3 tecniques). Also they would tend to think the attack (the strike) will allways hit the target or at least would create a large opening and the second strike 100% would land.They are not prepared for an opponent who can dodge an attack and counter, then in turn to slip and counter the counter and so on as the sport fighters do. In their case (of sport fighters) all becames many times a construction, a chess game until one of them really makes a mistake. The former category of practitioners i think most will not be capable to handle that. Many of them at the first dodging and counter or a non pattern attack would be like a driver with little no experience when suddenly and obstacle comes. They will freeze making a grimace and would let the accident happen (if they would even have the time to do a grimace). There is a video on youtbe “Level vs martial Artist” (Level is a fellow of Kimbo Slice). I think most of cases would happen like this.

        Also i believe the quality of competition and Quality of skills are more important than presence or absence of some rules. Couture is known as using dirty boxing, having many moves not allowed in boxing, so theoretical he still had advantages to fight Toney stand up, but he didn’t, he knew it would have been a huge risk. Of course, i think it would have been significant different if the Toneys opponent would have been Jones, Machida, Silva, incomparable better strikers than Randy…and totaly different if Toney would have attempted to fight in K1.
        I tend also to believe although Rio Heroes (for example) has a more permisive rules set than UFC, the second guys are better than the formers and would win at least 7/10 even under RH rule set. I think also today UFC fighters would mop the floor with fighters who participated in the first UFC’s.

        “His friends and supporters can say whatever they want, the ultimate proving ground when it comes to fighting is to actually fight.”

        this. I used to use an analogy, you can see a driver making super spectacular drifts, jumps, attacking hairpins….doing such of demos. But to really know if he is a good rally driver you have to see his times on rally stages and to see if he is capable to enter in points.

        “Ultimately I think Bruce Lee should be respected more for his cultural influence than his fighting prowess because his fighting skills weren’t proven. ”

        this again. We can at most speculate about his talent and potential “what if he would dedicate himself in his prime for full contact competitions in high leagues and to develop his potential in this direction, how far would he have reached and how fast “.

        But perhaps Bruce himself wanted to let a mistery about him, a kind of myth and illusion of invincibility by not facing elite opponents.That made perhaps the mass media work easier. Even if you become great at it (like guys like Valdemar Santana, Kimura, Fujiwara, Payakaroon, Dekkers, Silva were/are) there will be almost 100% at least one defeat in the career. That alone makes the guy look human and beatable and there is no more place for a aula of invincibility.
        Many fans quote him saying “i can beat any man in the world” ( and this, if i well remember is a notice published posthumously) and that’s enough for them.

        “I believe a Martial Artist can beat a Boxer, even those that don’t compete in full-contact combat sports. ”

        “a boxer”…decent possible. If we talk about special boxers like Ali, Tyson, SRR, RJJ…then we really have to see first what that martial artist can do, what is he capable of, what is his composture after being hit and so on. At least without seeing some sparring sessions of him, i wouldn’t rush to place a bet.

      • re a non-competing teacher like Lee and others not being able to handle a competing fighter…i`ve said it twice before and i`ll say it again – my buddy, Bill Little from Glasgow was a 3 times world champion kickboxer who was a knockout specialist back in the days he fought.

        Bill`s instructor, Tommy Morris (now 8th Dan), was also my instructor years before Bill so I asked him if he could beat Tommy…Bill replied that Tommy would “Destroy” him AND any of the many other great competing and proven fighters that came from Tommy`s club. So to say a fighter would beat non-competing teachers like Lee is, quite simply, crap.

        Again i`ll say you can see Bill and Tommy doing their thing at youtube…Tommy is in his 80`s and is still absolutely lethal as he still trains and teaches daily.

        People say Lee was just an actor with some martial arts background and not a real fighter – Bill, after he retired, became an actor, stunt-coordinator, scriptwriter, producer, director and his involvement in films and tv work does not take away from the fact that he could fight like fuck and still can as he trains regularly and keeps in shape.

        Also, Bill, when champion, stayed with Chuck Norris at his home in the USA…Bill asked Chuck the usual question – could he beat Bruce…Chuck`s replied that if he and Bruce stuck to karate, he could, but when Bruce included all his fighting repertoire, he couldn`t compete with him.

        Lee was a true phenomenon and guys like this always attract controversy as is shown in the debates here and elsewhere. He was, as LeBell said; “The best of his day” and I have absolutely no doubt he would still be incredibly special if he was around today, in his prime and learning all the new stuff that`s been developed since his time.

      • I personally don’t believe that anyone is unbeatable. It’s impossible to prove such a person exists, as one cannot fight every fighter on the planet. There are some truly phenomenal fighters on this planet who never compete in sanctioned tournaments. I have to laugh whenever someone says “so and so is the best fighter in mixed martial arts”, instead of “so and so is the best fighter in the their organization, i.e. UFC .Pride Fighting Championships, World Extreme Cagefighting, International Fight League, EliteXC, DREAM, Strikeforce, Bellator Fighting Championships. or what have you. I know many of these no longer exist, but I’m making a point. Aside from these organizations, there are many countries that hold tournaments even more brutal than the ones listed above, so we would have to ask how a fighter from above would fare in a tournament with far less rules, or even no rules?

        Bruce Lee was only concerned with training for a scenario with no rules.
        Many of you think a good grappler would destroy Lee. Do you honestly think that Lee would bother to grapple with someone bigger & stronger than himself?
        Hell no! He would apply every technique that is forbidden in the above listed tournaments. It’s a real eye opener for a grappler when he fights someone who will rip his face open, poke his eye out, or bite and tear a huge chunk of flesh from their body. A grappler would have to make absolutely sure that Lee had no free hand. Or even a free leg for that matter. As muscular as Bolo Yeung was, he said that Bruce grabbed his forearm once and squeezed it as tight as he could. Yeung said it felt like his forearm was in a vice and was near collapse.
        As far as what kind of ‘fighter’ Bruce Lee was? I think it’s safe to say that in reality, maybe five percent of the people posting on chat forums anywhere in the world have really done their homework on Bruce Lee, and have realistic insight as to just how he would fare against highly skilled, larger and stronger fighters.

        With that being said, when answering questions regarding Bruce Lee as a fighter, we have to omit those who have either not fought with him, or had not witnessed him fighting fight first hand. This means we have to omit Joe Lewis, Ed Parker & Mike Stone for starters. In fact, all three of these men had said things in interviews that were absolutely not true as we can easily prove otherwise.
        To have Louis Delgado, Skipper Mullins, Ernest Lieb, Fred Wren, Pat Burleson, Aaron Banks, Jim Harrison, John Worley, Steve Sanders, Howard Jackson and Allen Steen (and this list of pro fighters is incomplete) all say that there was nobody in Bruce Lee’s league as a fighter, is nothing short of having the top fighters in the UFC today, say that “John Smith’s” combat skill is otherworldly…so to speak. The things that separated Bruce Lee from these other skilled fighters was tremendous speed & power, as well as evasiveness, and Lee’s inate ability to read his opponent’s movements. With this, Lee was also showing them the necessity of interception and no mindedness if one is to win a fight quickly. If one cannot fight in a completely reactionary manner (essentially self hypnosis), they are not performing to their full potential.
        There is just no person competing in mixed martial arts today that has all of the combined attributes Bruce Lee had. In fact, as pure strikers, I’d pick many Karate champions of the past to wipe the floor with them. Why? Because striking is all those guys did! Far too much emphasis is put on grappling in the UFC, and not enough time refining striking skills, for real world combat.
        Of course, when you have 32 rules in place to protect these fighters, it’s a good forum for grappling. There is virtually almost no risk of serious injury because of the rules.

        To sum up, there are some incredible human beings on this planet. Many are showcased on Stan Lee’s ‘Superhumans’. SOME of these people are the real deal, and if this show was around in Lee’s time, he surely would have been considered one!

    • @Nebula One

      “There is just no person competing in mixed martial arts today that has all of the combined attributes Bruce Lee had. In fact, as pure strikers, I’d pick many Karate champions of the past to wipe the floor with them.”

      I have to disagree with you there. For instance Anderson Silva is a master counter striker with the greatest striking accuracy in the UFC (67%). I have no doubt that his striking skills were superior to Bruce Lee’s and I do believe that to be really good at striking you have to be involved in full-contact fighting. Lyoto Machida is a high level Karate fighter. He is known for being extremely elusive and having great counter striking skills. He’s become a knockout artist now but earlier in his career he fought more like a point fighter and won a lot of fights by decision.

      Karate champions of Bruce Lee’s era might be better strikers than some of the low level brawlers in MMA but the elite strikers in MMA are as good as elite Kickboxers in K-1. The proof of that is that some MMA fighters have beaten K-1 fighters under MMA rules and K-1 rules. Point fighters don’t have the same level of striking ability as Full-contact fighters. You’ve got to train full-contact to really get a feel for real combat.

      The cheap tactics that are illegal in the UFC are not as effective as you think. Some Martial Artists employed these tactics in Gracie challenge matches and even the early UFCs when they were legal and they still couldn’t stop the grappling moves of experts like Royce Gracie. You can easily resist a bite if you have a high threshold for pain as well as scratching. Eye gouges and groin shots are difficult to land. Those tactics clearly do damage to fighters when they land accidentally but obviously if you don’t train to use these tactics in a full-contact scenario against a resisting opponent you’re not going to be good at them.

      With that being said I can see world class grapplers taking Bruce Lee to the ground and choking him out. Under MMA rules he would certainly lose to the most skilled of grapplers and I think he’d lose to quality strikers like Jose Aldo or Demetrious Johnson that are around his size never mind bigger fighters like Anderson Silva and Jon Jones.

      Like Sorin said no one is invincible and in the world of professional fighting any aura of invincibility can disappear with one loss. Few fighters remain undefeated over the course of their career like Rocky Marciano. Even if you get to that level you’re still human and therefore beatable. Does anyone really think that Marciano could have beaten Muhammad Ali, Mike Tyson or Lennox Lewis? Floyd Mayweather has looked unstoppable in Boxing and might retire undefeated. If he fought in the UFC I have no doubt that he’d be beaten. That’s why he turned down Dana White’s challenge to fight Sean Sherk for the Lightweight title after Mayweather said Boxers were better fighters than Mixed Martial Artists and that he could beat an MMA fighter at their own sport.

      I’m a fan of Bruce Lee. He was clearly talented but I think we also have to recognize that he had his limitations. He could be beaten as can everyone and he’d probably lose to top MMA fighters regardless of if it was under MMA rules or a street fight with no rules. The cheap tactics that are illegal in MMA have proven to not be that effective in no-holds barred challenge matches so it’s unlikely that Bruce Lee would have been able to employ them against a skilled grappler.

      If we’re talking Bruce Lee in his prime with the skills he developed in his lifetime I say he loses against top Mixed Martial Artists. If he had time to train and become a Mixed Martial Artist himself I think he could be pretty good, maybe even a champion.

      • @ MYSTICNINJAJAY

        MMJ: “I have to disagree with you there. For instance Anderson Silva is a master counter striker with the greatest striking accuracy in the UFC (67%).

        You are making my point precisely! Silva has the best striking accuracy in “The UFC”. The UFC has a very limited group of fighters competing at any time in any weight class, as does every MMA organization. And considering fighters from other organizations around the world, from what I’ve read on other forums, many feel that the overall quality of fighters in the UFC is not the best of the bunch. The number of high quality fighters Silva will face in a career lifetime in the UFC is so miniscule they are insignificant when compared to all global MMA competition. Every MMA organization has it’s premiere fighters, and Silva is or maybe even was (we’ll see in December) the UFC’s in his weight class. However, one has to wonder what the heck he was up to in this clip? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwDqz2P0YTw
        Silva half heartedly stood there with his hands down instead of protecting his chin. Even after he got popped, he just stood there with his hands at his side weaving instead of protecting his face. To be fair to Silva, he is an excellent mixed martial artist when he’s on his game!

        Now, compare the career of say Fedor Emelianenko to Silva’s. This guy really impressed me because he had proven himself a champion in a wide variety of MMA organization arenas over many, many years. I.e. Pride, Rings, Bodog Fight, M-1 Global, Yarennoka, DREAM, Affliction, StrikeForce and so on. It’s no wonder Dana White wanted him in the UFC so badly! He was killing everybody!! His MMA record (according to Wiki) is 35 wins and 4 losses. That is a fantastic record, especially given that he fought such a wide variety of fighters from many different organizations. I understand Silva had fought in a few other arenas outside the UFC as well, but not near as many as Fedor.

        MMJ: ” I have no doubt that his striking skills were superior to Bruce Lee’s and I do believe that to be really good at striking you have to be involved in full-contact fighting.”

        You see, there’s the rub. You are with all due repsect, very ignorant to the way in which Lee had trained. If you read ANYTHING from Dan Inosanto about his days training with Bruce Lee, he mentions their implementation of full contact training time and time again. In fact, Lee introduced full contact sparring at Ed Parker’s 1967 Long Beach tournament. Nobody had seen anything like it up to that point.

        Please don’t misunderstand me, I know that there were full contact tournaments (i.e. Vale Tudo and the like), but Lee introduced realistic and revolutionary ways in which to train to maim and kill full force. Many years ago, the Norman Borine Bruce Lee museum had auctioned off the face masked Lee and company used to practice shooting at the eyes. Like any sharpshooter, Lee practiced eye strikes like a madman, because it’s one of the few real equalizers on the human body. I don’t care how friggin big and tough you are, take a finger jab to the eye, and it will completely incapacitate. Your opponent is at your mercy.
        You seem to be completely unaware that Lee had proclaimed to the entire martial art world, that if one wants to be a great warrior, one has to train realistically to that end. His way of getting his point across was using a swimming analogy, saying “if want wants to learn to swim, one must get into the water”. Do you honestly believe that in all the years Lee had immersed himself into the world of some of the most elite Masters and fighters of his time, not one person would challenge Bruce Lee to show them that he was in fact training for real world combat? Martial artists are a proud group of people, especially world champion fighters. There is just no way Lee’s combat skill wouldn’t have come into question at some point in all his years of training. Particularly with that breed of people. The words ‘combat realism’ was all but synonymous with the name Bruce Lee in his day, and so it is currently.
        It was this type of training that made it possible to wow the great masters and pro fighters of his time.

        MMJ: ” Point fighters don’t have the same level of striking ability as Full-contact fighters. You’ve got to train full-contact to really get a feel for real combat”

        I get it. No one here is talking about point fighting. That was the farthest thing from Lee’s mind, even in the very early days of his training. While these guys (point fighters) were often pretty brutal to one another, point fighting serves no purpose for real world martial artists. You and I have a complete opposite view of the words ‘real combat’. To me, real combat doesn’t exist in tournament form. Today, paintball is a very hot sport around the world. Special Forces from every country on the planet utilize paintball weaponry for training. I recently watched a documentary on the Navy S.E.A.L.S., and after completing a mission, one of the trainees made it clear that once the ammo is live, it’s a whole different situation. It DOES matter mentally when your life is on the line.
        This is the same for sport combat vs. street combat. One is a game, and the other is potentially lethal. Lee never cared about the sport side of Martial arts, so he did not train like a sport fighter.

        MMJ: “Eye gouges and groin shots are difficult to land. Those tactics clearly do damage to fighters when they land accidentally but obviously if you don’t train to use these tactics in a full-contact scenario against a resisting opponent you’re not going to be good at them.”

        Exactly! Which is precisely why Lee trained to be so proficient at these tactics. Because on the streets, it is more than likely someone WILL try to maim or kill you. So you had better be prepared for it!
        I’ve had some excellent grapplers come over to my place in an attempt to show that when a skilled grappler has you, it’s all over. I’ve had absolutely no difficulty in hurting these guys just enough with eye scrapes, ear pops and throat attacks to know how effective they can be against a grappler. For the record, if you want a bite to work against an attacker, it is never wise to just bite. One should tear a chunk of flesh from the body. Even if they do not acknowledge the pain right away, they’ll be mortified when you spit out a big chunk of what was once a piece of their body. I know that from experience!

        In fact, I’ve trained women to use this stuff for over thirty years, and they see for themselves that an attacker is just a human being that can easily be hurt just like the rest of us. The advantage the attacker has is the element of surprise. If one is hyper-vigilant, it greatly reduces the chances of being caught off guard.
        I watched my four year old grandson drop a 6’3″ 260 pound body builder (a friend of mine) just last week. My grandson had a drumstick in his hand and my friend was wrestling around with him, and all of a sudden I hear my friend let out a yell, and was bright red in the face. It looked like he was ready to pass out. I find out a few minutes later that my grandson was whipping the drumstick around and had hit the top of his finger tips with it. I can tell you from experience, having that happen to you is incredibly painful!
        So, you, me and Bruce Lee agree that one must train with a fully resisting opponent to become a highly skilled fighter.

        MMJ: “With that being said I can see world class grapplers taking Bruce Lee to the ground and choking him out.”

        Always a possibility…just not a probability imo.

        MMJ: “Like Sorin said no one is invincible and in the world of professional fighting any aura of invincibility can disappear with one loss. Few fighters remain undefeated over the course of their career like Rocky Marciano.”

        We agree again!

        MMJ: “Even if you get to that level you’re still human and therefore beatable.”

        I agree…no one is unbeatable.

        MMJ: “Floyd Mayweather has looked unstoppable in Boxing and might retire undefeated. If he fought in the UFC I have no doubt that he’d be beaten. That’s why he turned down Dana White’s challenge to fight Sean Sherk for the Lightweight title after Mayweather said Boxers were better fighters than Mixed Martial Artists and that he could beat an MMA fighter at their own sport.”

        I disagree completely with Mayweather. Boxers are severely limited in techniques compared to a MMA. Put a boxer and a MMA together with similar skill and experience, and I’d take the MMA every time.

        MMJ: “I’m a fan of Bruce Lee. He was clearly talented but I think we also have to recognize that he had his limitations.”

        He surely did! However, one has to be very knowledgeable in just how good Lee really was in order to recognize those limitations. The only people who knew Lee’s limitations were the ones who had gone full contact with him, or at the very least, witnessed the event.
        Recently, a number of NASA astronauts (Gordon Cooper, Edgar Mitchell and Buzz Aldrin to name a few) have come forward and said they’ve seen alien spacecraft either with their own two eyes in spaceflight, or highly classified film footage (the Holoman Air Force Base landing). Interestingly, some world class scientists say that they do not believe Alien life forms exist, and what these guys saw can be explained rationally by earthly means. Astronauts and military pilots know precisely what current flying military technology is, and what is not. They are very familiar with what is normally the skies at any time. Yet, these scientists, who have no flying experience whatsoever, and are not familiar with the skies, call it hogwash. Now, which one would you believe?
        We have the same situation with Bruce Lee. The many highly skilled and accomplished fighters & masters making claims of Lee’s incredible fighting prowess, were familiar with all other contemporary fighter’s skill levels, and made comparisons to those fighters, just as Jim Kelly did in his interview. For so many great fighters to say Lee had shut them down before they could essentially even make a move is quite a bold statement to make. So, who’s opinion do we trust? Those who had faced Lee personally, or those who have never met him and base their opinion on speculation and conjecture?

        With this statement from you “If we’re talking Bruce Lee in his prime with the skills he developed in his lifetime I say he loses against top Mixed Martial Artists.”

        I have to ask you, what information are you basing this opinion on?

        You also said: “If he had time to train and become a Mixed Martial Artist himself I think he could be pretty good, maybe even a champion.”

        With all due respect, you seem to have almost no idea as to Lee’s actual combat skill. Bruce Lee trained CONSTANTLY! You have to remember that Lee’s ma movie career only spanned a few years at the end of his life. Even then he trained regularly. Far more often than pro fighters at any rate. Bruce Lee WAS a mixed martial artist, and trained more realistically for life threatening scenarios than what is being done in mixed martial arts tournaments today. In fact, Dana White considers Bruce Lee the father of mixed martial arts, which really pisses off Gene LeBell! If you do some good in depth research on Bruce Lee, you will understand this. There are plenty of excellent books and videos out there from people who actually trained with him. It will be a real eye opener for you if you do!

  35. [Out on the street, I`d put my house on Bruce doing to him what he`d have done to all-time champion, Joe Lewis, Norris, Stone, Kelly, etc., etc., and that is he`d DESTROY Anderson short time and ABSOLUTELY NO CONTEST.
    that`s why some genuine experts in fighting styles, who knew Bruce, have said someone like him comes along every 1000 years – not every hundred]

    Stuart, just paraphrasing Sorin, some guys just lose all sense of reality and common sense when gushing about Bruce Lee. When ddi Bruce evr whup Lewis, Norris, Stone or Silva? in your dreams, perhaps, and maybe in some scenes in a movie. But never in a a ring.

    Every 1,000 years? like heck. Daniel Craig,

    • read what i said – out on the street and not in a restrictive ring with the usual restricting rules. I noticed you left out Jim Kelly, who states, quite openly and honestly, that “None of us could beat Bruce”…he didn`t say this to somehow be complimentary to Bruce, but didn`t really mean it…that`s a nonsensical thing to say and to say it to try and further your argument – you didn`t say this, someone else did – Kelly said it because, as a proven world champion, he meant every word of it having seen what Bruce could do and was all about…no doubt you will try to rubbish Kelly`s opinion.

      Also, there was the video comments i posted of Joe Lewis on youtube and saying Bruce “Was BY FAR the best” and he was including himself in this appraisal of Bruce. If you want, i`ll be happy to post a link again to Joe saying this…

      Same with the comments of Gene LeBell…”Bruce was the best of his time”…again, the comments of LeBell will make no difference to you, i`d reckon as you`re way too close minded, even to the opinions of guys i`ve just mentioned…

    • an amazingly complimentary comment by Chris Weidman on Bruce Lee just minutes after knocking out Anderson Silvi…Chris, like a lot of MMA fighters, must do a lot of praying before a big fight and, on winning, immediately gave thanks to his God for granting the win…Chris said a big thank-you to his: “God, the unbeatable Bruce Lee of MMA”…obviously this mega tough and talented MMA fighter has the same opinion of Bruce as some of us here…if you haven`t already heard him say this, watch and listen to his comment immediately after the fight and see what you think…

      • MysticNinjajay

        Weidman was calling Anderson Silva “The unbeatable Bruce Lee of Mixed Martial Arts.”

        His exact words:

        Chris Weidman: “I felt I was destined for this. But still it felt a little far-fetched. I imagined doing it a million times in my ahead but for it to actually happen it still feels surreal. Thank God. The only way this could have happened is God. He’s the unbeatable freaking Bruce Lee of Mixed Martial Arts and thank God he gave me the power to do it.”

        Great compliment to Bruce Lee and I agree with his analogy. Anderson Silva was 16-0 in the UFC prior to fighting Weidman. Nearly every win was a highlight reel finish. Silva fought like he was in The Matrix. He fought like he was Bruce Lee in the movies. He developed an aura of invincibility with his extraordinary fighting skills. And he did it in real fights.

        I think Anderson Silva will win the rematch against Chris Weidman and reclaim his glory. That should be a good fight. Anderson himself loves and respects Bruce Lee. Silva has called him the best and says watching Bruce Lee inspired him to be a fighter which changed his life. I’m sure he is honored to be likened to Bruce Lee.

  36. @MysticNinjajay

    actually to me it looks like Bruce can bite much easier in that position, if he would choose to do that, while for the other guy i see little no chance…actually none.

    I would say if your skills are comparable to your opponent (in punching, kicking, clinch, wrestling and ground work) and in addition you train and use foul tactics, those may bring you the edge, is very possible. But if the difference of skills is large, i don’t think the “dirty tactics” would help too much.

  37. @MysticNinjajay

    Silva is a very great fighter and a very proven one. And yet even in his case many fans become fanboys, worst, nutthuggers, losing any Kind of trace of reality and common sense. When i see them (and they are many) arguing on how he would beat ( or at least would have “a fair chance against”) someone like prime Hoost or Aerts in pure striking, that remaind me that the human ignorance (to use a soft word) knows no bounds. The things may go even worst for him (again, in striking only) if a guy like Yodsanklai or Sanchai would be at least 6 foot tall and 180-185 pounds heavy. Again, he is more than a great fighter, it is just about how the pople lose the ground beneath their feet.

    About Lee, honestly i wouldn’t compare him to Silva (or GSP….or Fedor etc)…aside his great skills and the well rounded type of fighter, the size difference is really big. And the size isn’t that important when the skills of the smaller guy are a mile ahead of the biger guys. I would start to compare him with guys like Aldo, Pettis or Edgar (guys around his weight), although i give them the edge whitout any special emotion.

  38. @Avenger

    By the way you said that the Inoki fight was a farce. I agree it was. But think about why that is. The reason Inoki fought the way he did is because of the rules restrictions Ali’s camp placed on the fight. Remember that Ali was the Heavyweight champion and needed to protect his public image. The word is that the fight was supposed to be a work but the Japanese wanted Ali to lose so he decided to turn it in to a shoot fight. But when his camp saw Inoki grappling they demanded restrictions on the techniques he could use.

    He wasn’t allowed to grapple or take Ali to the ground and he had to have one knee on the ground when he kicked. That explains the sliding kicks. Basically Inoki had to practically box to beat Ali and that’s suicide. I think under MMA rules Inoki would have beaten Ali. Check out this video:

    You call Inoki a coward for the way he fought but Ali could also be called a coward for demanding special rules that limited the techniques Inoki could use. Bruce Lee being a smaller opponent is at a disadvantage in size but he could have the techniques to give Boxers like Ali and Tyson problems. These are fighters who are reflex trained to attack and defend like a Boxer.
    Bruce Lee probably had as much street fighting experience as Tyson and he studied Martial Arts techniques that could be used on the street.

    Like I said I give Bruce a decent chance against Boxers. I give him less of a chance against Mixed Martial Artists. I would like to switch gears and ask Nebula One and Stuart what they think of Bruce Lee vs. MMA fighters such as Georges St. Pierre and Anderson Silva in a street fight.

    • I just refreshed my memory of Anderson Silva at youtube and watched him at his very impressive best…he`s the Sugar Ray Leonard of MMA…against normal top MMA guys; he reads their punches and sways out of reach – except when he got a wee bit sloppy and get knocked out – and full of wee tricky moves like his back-spin leg-sweep etc…all his impressive successes are against normal top fighters who move and who`s movements can be read, anticipated and reacted to by him in a successful way…HOWEVER, a modern-day Bruce, who, according to the fighting guys who knew him, also “Loved grappling” so I`d expect the Bruce of today to do what he did in every other fighting style he learned and be streets ahead of everyone else, with the difference being him delivering the moves, strikes etc., at the blur speed he was known for and with the explosive `Heart stopping` power (Jessie Glover: “An explosive punch to the chest from Bruce was so hard, it could possibly stop an opponents heart”).

      Out on the street, I`d put my house on Bruce doing to him what he`d have done to all-time champion, Joe Lewis, Norris, Stone, Kelly, etc., etc., and that is he`d DESTROY Anderson short time and ABSOLUTELY NO CONTEST. Bruce was, as sooo aptly described; “Other-worldly”, when getting right into it in a fight or serious sparring…Anderson Silva and every body else to date, have not earned the tag; “Other-worldly”…that`s why some genuine experts in fighting styles, who knew Bruce, have said someone like him comes along every 1000 years – not every hundred years – and that he lived, breathed and trained in martial arts 24 hours a day, 7 days a week…he was a fighting freak…

      I`m still in awe at the video I just watched at youtube, with all-time champion, Joe Lewis, saying on camera; “He was, BY FAR, the greatest martial artist I have known”…the words “By far” really made me think…that means he wasn`t just a bit ahead of the best around, including himself, that means he was waaay out in front of the best, including himself; the greatest proven fighter of the day and of all-time..

      Try and use your imagination to envisage what type of abilities Lee had to make Joe say this…it is truly awe-inspiring and someone like Anderson Silva does not come close to earning a description like this and never will…Anderson and the others, to date, are not “Once in a 1000 years martial artists”…the new guy who earns this title has still to come along…

      • MysticNinjajay

        @Stuart Leggat

        I have to respectively disagree with you here Stuart. First of all anyone can say anything about a fighter it doesn’t necessarily mean it’s true. You’re talking like Bruce Lee was a fighting God. I think enough credible people have put in a good word for Bruce to believe he was a good fighter. He certainly had the physical condition and athleticism of a world class Martial Artist so I believe he was good. But “other worldly” and “once in 1000 years” are flattering descriptions that are hard to live up to.

        Anderson Silva has received similar praise.

        He’s been described by Joe Rogan as the greatest fighter in the history of Martial Arts and fights like he’s in The Matrix. With respect to Bruce Anderson Silva actually proved it in competition. Where I disagree with people like Avenger is when they say that Bruce Lee can’t compare to professional fighters because he didn’t compete. There is a reason that so many professional fighters of Bruce’s day praised him and it’s not because they liked him enough to hype him up. He was indeed good but no one is invincible. I think Anderson Silva would put a whooping on Bruce Lee. He’s just got too much experience. He’s an expert at many Martial Arts techniques (unlike a Boxer who only knows punching) plus he has a size and reach advantage.

        One of the descriptions Anderson Silva also received by the man who defeated him in his last fight was “The Bruce Lee of Mixed Martial Arts.” That’s how good Anderson Silva is. He fights like Bruce Lee in his movies. While I’d love to believe that Bruce is as good as he was in the movies realistically even he wasn’t that good. Even Anderson as you mentioned got careless and got knocked out by Chris Weidman who gave him the Bruce Lee compliment. Anderson Silva idolizes Bruce Lee and Muhammad Ali and tries to emulate both of them in his fighting style including Ali’s showboating which got him in trouble in his last fight. I think Silva will redeem himself in the rematch.

        But as for Anderson Silva vs. Bruce Lee I’ve got to go with Silva on this one. I can use my imagination to speculate on how good he is but I’ve got to separate fantasy from reality here. Bruce stopping people’s hearts with a punch to the chest is just talk and not realistic. Anderson Silva has one shot KO’d guys with kicks, elbows, knees and punches. His power has been proven.

        I’d love to see Bruce Lee in a real fight though to see what he was really and truly made of. We can only imagine…..

        Speaking of which check this out:

        One thing is certain. Bruce Lee was a pioneer and a great influence on Anderson Silva.

      • Stuart Leggat

        I`ve noticed that you and others who knock Bruce Lee, very, very conveniently ignore the observations and heart-felt comments of people who`s comments cannot be ignored or disregarded as they are true experts in the field of martial arts and are unlike most of the people who knock Lee`s abilities.

        Example: the best you could say about my last post with the video of Joe Lewis; the guy voted the all-time greatest martial artist, where he says, on camera and not in some obscure and doubtful magazine interview, that Bruce was “BY FAR the best”, all you could say about this was; ” First of all anyone can say anything about a fighter it doesn’t necessarily mean it’s true”. This to me typifies close-minded people like yourself as, in your ignorance, you totally disregard a heavyweight comment from Lewis like you just did. Lewis saying this cannot be disregarded and MUST be listened to very, very seriously indeed. Can you understand this? By him saying this about Bruce, it should be a real eye-opener to everyone as to just how incredibly special Lee was…it`s the smoking gun with fingerprints on it in the forensic evidence of how good Lee was.

        This comment from Lewis also reinforces the comments of others like Jim Kelly and many, many other top people involved in martial arts at the time Lee was about, who said Bruce could beat all of them…Kelly didn`t say this just to show a bit of gratitude to the memory of Bruce because he gave him a part in one of his films as someone stupidly suggested, he said it because it was a heart-felt observation on Lee`s abilities, nothing more, nothing less and to twist Kelly`s comments to mean something else, is to do it to try and reinforce your own weak argument against Lee.

        Finally; Joe Lewis knew what he was talking about when he said this about Lee…there is no one more qualified on the planet to give an account of what Bruce was about than this guy so listen to what he said and try to use your imagination as to what made him say this re the fighting abilities of Bruce…

    • @ MysticNinjajay

      If Inoki didn’t agree with the rules, then he should have taken his responsibilities and refuse to fight under those conditions. If he accepted the rules, the he should have fought like a man. He feared Ali’s punches.

      Bruce’s knowledge didn’t prevent him to hurt his fists in punching WJM’s backhead.
      There isn’t a single proof that Bruce Lee has ever sparred full contact. There’s one footage that would even prove the opposite :

      Bruce made this “sparring” with Dan Inosanto in the Long Beach Tournament of Ed Parker in 1967. They wore protective outfits and helmets. They wore too many protections to even feel contact! Their prestation was lame. No defensive stances, error of timing, several hesitations. Good for show that’s all.
      If Bruce never practiced full contact sparring unlike boxers, how could he have tested his skills and identified efficient techniques

      Dude, you have to realize that Bruce Lee has explored mainly the theorical approach, but barely the practical approach in actual combat. To become a fighter is easy to say but hard to do. Whereas Ali and Tyson fought valuable opponents to test and enhance their skills, Bruce remained in a world of make-believe.

      If Bruce was so sure about his fighting abilities, why had he never proved his might in competing in tournaments and challenging skilled fighters?
      Why did he prefer to show his skills in choregraphed fights instead of doing it in actual combats?

      This “sparring” video and the video that shows him punching the bag and practicing some kicks hint clearly that Bruce Lee wouldn’t fare well against against pro fighters. Bruce would be destroyed if he had fought against great champion such as Tyson and Ali.

      Feel free to ask Stuart or Nebula One about an hypothetic fight between BL and MMA fighters. They trust DeMile when he has stated that Bruce Lee would have beaten everybody, no matter the size, the weight and the background. Good luck to bring some senses to them.
      Read how this “know-it-all” Nebula One would plan to deal with grapplers and trust his experience. His plan consists in letting the grapplers to take him down and pin him to the floor and then, he would try to bit them or poke their eyes.
      I remind that Gerard Gordeau has tried this “scheme” against Royce Gracie in the final of UFC1 in 1993. Royce chocked him quickly.

      • MysticNinjajay

        @Avenger

        I do agree that Bruce Lee was more interested in Martial Arts theory than competing in professional fights. He didn’t pursue a career in professional fighting. He preferred to teach and when he got a break he went in to acting displaying his Martial Arts skills on film. I don’t think the short glimpse in to Bruce’s training in his backyard and the sparring demonstration with Dan Inosanto tells us much. That’s not real fighting it’s just practice and there isn’t much to go on in order to assess his real fighting skills.

        Check out this video of Anderson Silva in a Boxing sparring session:

        Not that impressive. Now look at him in the Forrest Griffin fight. He looks incredible. Now I know that Anderson Silva is a professional fighter and Bruce Lee is not but when a fighter lets loose in a real fight they can look a lot better than they do in training. Bruce Lee had a little experience. He did when an amateur Boxing tournament and he did have several street fights. The Wong Jack Man fight served as an eye opener because it was one of his first duels as a young adult after years of Martial Arts training.

        I’m threw arguing with you about Bruce Lee vs. Boxers. We can agree to disagree. Perhaps you’d like to enter the discussion I’m having with Stuart about Bruce Lee vs. Mixed Martial Artists. I do agree about Nebula One’s comments about using dirty tactics against grapplers because that has proven to not work in the past. Aside from Royce Gracie in the early UFCs I’ve seen Gracie challenge matches such as one where Rorion Gracie fights an opponent who tries to grab his groin during a fight and fails to effect him. The crisp clean submission movies of Jiu-Jitsu are superior to any dirty tactics used to counter them. Interestingly enough even Bruce Lee believed in doing things like biting to escape from holds.

        Biting can be effective but there’s no guarantee that it will work.

    • @Stuart Leggat

      I’m not knocking Bruce Lee by saying that modern Mixed Martial Artists could beat him. I even said that enough credible people have said that Bruce Lee was a good fighter to believe there is truth to the statement along with my own observations. But when you get in to how good saying things like “other worldly” and “one in a 1000 years” is just talk. OK they think he’s very good and maybe he was. I don’t doubt that. But so is Anderson Silva and he has received similar praise. So where does that leave us? It leaves us to make our own observations because praise at the end of the day doesn’t determine who would win in an actual fight. Sometimes people can exaggerate and sometimes they can be wrong.

      I don’t think it’s wise to just appeal to authority based on the comments of Joe Lewis or Jim Kelly and leave it at that. Friends of fighters even fellow fighters praise fighters all the time and when they actually fight sometimes they lose. Bruce Lee is no different. He was human. If someone hit him he would get hurt. If someone caught him in a submission he would tap out or have a limb broken or get chocked out just like everyone else. Because he was HUMAN. I have no doubt he was exceptional but there are a lot of fighters who are exceptional in MMA who trained just as hard as he did and actually competed.

      I can use my imagination but also use my logic. Bruce Lee has limitations. For instance size. Bruce Lee was 5’7″ and weighed 135 most of his adult life. In MMA terms he would be a Bantamweight. He was the same size as Dominick Cruz. That’s a small man and size does matter even for Bruce Lee. When skills are equal size definitely matters. Now let’s look at experience. Well Bruce Lee had some street fights as a kid, he won an amateur Boxing tournament in high school and he had some challenge matches and a few street fights as an adult including the Wong Jack Man fight. But he had 0 professional fights and he fought nobodies in the fighting world during his life time. He was the founder of Jeet Kune Do and did train with some of the best fighters in the world but he himself wasn’t a professional fighter.

      Compare that to Anderson Silva who is 33-5 in MMA with 20 wins by knockout and 6 by submission. He holds the UFC record for most title defenses and most consecutive wins. His striking accuracy is 67%. He’s a Black belt in Tae Kwon Do and Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu as well as an expert Muay Thai and Capoeira. In my opinion there’s simply no way that Bruce Lee was better than Anderson Silva at fighting. No way. Was he good? Sure. But not better than the greatest Mixed Martial Artist of all time.

      You can’t get that good without actually fighting top competition. You simply can’t. There was no combat sport during Bruce’s time that would have prepared him for the caliber of fighters that exist in MMA today. Vale Tudo was an obscure Brazilian sport. Boxing is limited to punching.
      Karate wasn’t full-contact. Kickboxing wasn’t popular yet. Muay Thai was only popular in Thailand. There simply wasn’t an organized fighting circuit that could produce a fighter like Anderson Silva. So even if Bruce Lee was the best in the world during his time the best in the world today are far superior to those during that time period. This is an observation based on dispassionate logic.

      I think Bruce Lee should be respected more for his cultural influence than his fighting prowess. I disagree with people who say he was no good but also with people who say he was the best ever. That’s no disrespect to Bruce Lee I’m just being realistic.

  39. @ MysticNinjajay

    I see you’re upset but at least be a man of your word : debate in bringing up logical arguments. Let the emotion’s issue to Bruce Lee’s fan boys such as Nebula One, Stuart, ect.
    I said that Ali had an EXHIBITION fight with the wrestler Kenny Jay. You know what it’s implied by EXHIBITION? I never considered it as a real fight, so stop making things up.
    Ali used some sweeps and take downs in this encounter.
    The fight between Inoki and Ali is more credible for you? Sure it can be considered as a real fight since Inoki has remained lying on the ground most of times. Indeed, in a real fight a man that remains lying on the floor is very dangerous for his opponent who’s on his feet. This is a farce, the referee should have forced Inoki to get on his feet, or Ali should have stomped this coward.

    You tell me that Lebell has taught grappling to Bruce and you don’t see where I want to lead you by talking about the fight between Gene Lebell and Milo Savage?
    First, Lebell taught grappling to Bruce, so we couldn’t expect Bruce to be superior to Lebell in this area.
    Then, Lebell had a lot of troubles to take Savage down and submit him though Savage was a middleweight average boxer who was much smaller than Lebell. Lebell used the difference of size to his advantage to push Savage towards the ropes. Bruce couldn’t use the difference of size to his advantage and his grappling’ skills wouldn’t exceed the ones of Lebell. Bruce would have had many more difficulties than Lebell to submit Savage.
    Imagine now how Bruce would have done against Ali, who has been an outstanding heavyweight boxing champion.
    Bruce wouldn’t have a single chance to dump Ali on his back.

    The video you’ve provided us about the encounter between Ali vs. Gorilla Monsoon proves my two points : it definitely needs an experienced wrestler to take Ali down and size really matters in grappling! Look at the difference of size between Gorilla Monsoon and Ali in favor of Gorilla!
    Bruce wasn’t an experienced wrestler and size isn’t in his side compared to Ali.

    I’ve already provided you a footage where you can see Bruce Lee performing some kicks. This footage proves his kicks aren’t fearsome but you’ve chosen to minimize it. It’s just a short clip, that doesn’t prove anything, Bruce was messing around, read his book, blablalbla…
    If that’s so, why do you keep refusing to talk about Bruce’s fights?
    Why don’t you provide another footage in which we can see Bruce performing his techniques for real and not in flashy demos?

    You’re making excuses for Bruce to not fit your vision of him as a fighter. You read Tao of Jeet Kune Do, and then you make your own vision of Bruce as a fighter…but you have never seen him fight for REAL!
    You even refuse to consider Bruce’s word when he has stated that Ali would kill him in a fight despite that all the facts support Bruce’s notice. You’re in denial and you’re discrediting Bruce Lee by doing so.

    Wake up from your daydreaming and get back to reality.
    Bruce Lee is renowned as a professional actor, choregrapher and producer of movies. He isn’t renowned for his fights!
    Every professional fighters would have beated Bruce Lee in a fight.

    • Every Professional fighter would have beaten Bruce Lee in a fight? Do you realize how many horrible fighters have fought professionally? Just because you’ve had a professional fight does not put you in a class of people who are superior to those of haven’t. Let’s skip the foolishness since you don’t know what you’re talking about when it comes to professional wrestling and talk about Bruce Lee’s fights.

      Bruce Lee won an amateur Boxing tournament in Hong Kong. That shows at the least that he had some talent. He fought Wong Jack Man. He had several street fights as a teenager and a few fights as a young adult including against Wong Jack Man and a few other masters as well as accepted challenges on the set of his movies. Now none of these fights are recorded so we can’t assess his fighting ability which I have acknowledged several times. I guess you weren’t paying attention.

      What these documented encounters do tell us at the least is that Bruce Lee had experience with real fights. He even competed at the amateur level in Boxing. Now this experience isn’t comparable to a world champion Boxer like Muhammad Ali which I have acknowledged before but it does reveal that Bruce Lee wasn’t just a movie star who trained to look good for the camera. He was a world class Martial Artist who was open to accepting challenges from anyone who wanted to test themselves against him.

      As for Bruce saying that Ali would kill him in a fight we’ve discussed that. He was talking about a Boxing match!

      “Look at my hand. That’s a little Chinese hand. He’d kill me.”

      This quote was mentioned in the context of Bruce Lee copying Ali’s movements in Boxing. I’ve seen a documentary where another person mentions witnessing Bruce doing the same thing but when asked why he was copying Ali’s movements he said that one day he was going to fight him. There goes your claim that Bruce would not fight Ali in a street fight.

      I’m not upset with you. Honestly I’m getting bored of this discussion. You keep attributing things to me that are not even true and can be demonstrated as such if you actually followed the discussion. There is no footage of Bruce Lee in a real fight. True. But there are eye witnesses to Bruce Lee in a real fight and the word of credible Martial Arts masters and professional fighters who saw Bruce train who believe that he was extremely good. How good? We can’t say. Some say he was the best even the greatest ever. I’m not saying that though. All I am saying is that I believe Bruce was good even good enough to beat a professional Boxer in a street fight. I could be wrong. We’ll never know.

      • @ MysticNinjajay

        Do you realize how horrible looks Bruce when he has worked out on the heavy bag?

        Every pro boxers would have done much better than him. He looks like a beginner.
        Bruce Lee won an amateur Boxing tournament in Hong Kong? I guess it has been in the lates 50′s.
        Then how could he have demonstrated such a lame boxing technique when he worked out on the heavy bag? DId he fight one-armed boxers in this amateur tournament in Hong Kong or what?

        Bruce was involved in several street fights in his youth? What else? Who has never been involved in a street fight once in his life? I guess that even bookworms must have to fight one day.
        Here’s a footage of one the rooftop fghts there were in Hong Kong in Bruce’s time :

        This is hilarious! Two grasshoppers who messed around and were unable to deliver one efficient punch! There were really some great fighters in Hong Kong in 1956!

        First you said that Bruce made this assertion : “Look at my hand. That’s a little Chinese hand. He’d kill me.” about an hypothetical boxing fight against Ali. Then you said that you saw a documentary in which a witness would have stated that Bruce planned to fight Ali!
        So Bruce expected to be destroyed by Ali but wanted to fight him anyway? Dude, Bruce wasn’t foolish.
        He’d have never taken the risk to challenge Ali in a fight when he achieved his dream to become a movie star, was well-off and had to take care of his family!
        Bruce was renowned for his movies. What would he gain to seek a street fight with Ali?
        Who would have organized a boxing match between a 135 lbs shrimp actor and the heavyweight boxing champion that weighed 215lbs??
        Bruce would have to become a pro boxer and he was 32 years old!! He would fight challengers who would be in their twenties and he’d be likely being defeated by them!

        Do you believe anyone can become a pro boxer or a pro wrestler? No! You’ve to prove your worth! You’ve to work and train to the limit to get the edge over the others candidates. The professional area is merciless. Bruce would have never tried this adventure when he was 32 years old! Stop dreaming!

        You rely words and perhaps biased testimonies, I rely on facts. Fact is Bruce Lee has never been a great fighter. The footage I’ve provided proves that Bruce is merely a beginner.
        He was good at choregraphed fights and acting, but not fighting.

        This is just for your info. Pro wrestling’s fights are perhaps scripted, but the fights aren’t fake. The wrestlers are capable fighters. One of them called Shawn Daivari proves it by choking out an aggressor ina train :
        http://articles.latimes.com/2012/oct/18/sports/la-sp-sn-shawn-daivari-train-20121018
        http://www.tnastars.com/2012/10/18/video-shawn-daivari-chokes-out-aggressor/

        Bruce wouldn’t be a match for pro fighters. Get over it.

  40. @ Stuart Leggat

    Who’s this Tommy Morris? Are you talking about this man ? http://www.worldkarate.net/About%20Us.shtml.
    He began training in judo in 1954, whereas Bill Little was born in 1954. This Bill Little may have told you that out of respect for this Tommy Morris, but assuming that a 3 times kickboxing champion would have lost against an older man who has never competed is preposterous.

    Like I’ve already said it, Bruce made a deal with Lewis, Norris and Stone to be seen as their instructors. The counterpart was that Lee helped them to enter to his Hollywood business. Norris, Stone and Lewis got involved in an episode of the wrecking crew, while Bruce choregraphed the fights and was credited as a karate advisor (though he barely knew anything about karate compared to Norris, Stone and Lewis).

    Lewis would have said that Bruce was the quickest man he had ever faced and that he hitted really strong when he caught him with a punch?
    Watch this footage :

    Bruce doesn’t look so fast in there. His punches don’t look so powerful when he works out at the heavy bag.
    Compare Bruce’s performance to the one of Manny Pacquaio :

    There’s nothing more to say. Pacquaio’s punches look much faster and stronger than the ones of Bruce.
    Words vs Facts.

    Lewis would have said that Bruce was the greatest…but the greatest WHAT? Actor? Choregrapher ? Martial artist? Showman?
    Wrestlers could beat all the others styles? Bruce has never been a wrestler, so what’s your point?

  41. good stuff except for the flipant comment about the Bible. Do some serious research before you make such a comment. Even the most ancient manuscripts show that the translations we refer to today are greater than 99% accurate in intent. Sure there is rewording in order to preserve understanding…(like sentence rearrangement from Spanish to english)…but greater than 99% of the time what a passage says now is what it said when it was written. BUT before you stone me…I heartily acknowledge that all that proves is the literary preservation…not the accuracy of the original accounts.

    • What a pathetic debate. Cast ego’s aside. The video’s posted of bruce on bag was not bruce practicing punching going all out neither were the kicking video’s lol. The whole purpose was for testing angles and how to throw punches and kicks for movie purposes only. You seem to disregard the fact that bruce was too quick to be captured properly on 33mm celluloid as used back then, it would be like being on acid and watching someone punch n kick, tracers galore! Lol. Modern day ufc fighters themselves say he was the best yet you are comparing him to these people, get a grip. What makes me laugh is how all these dry land swimmers of old competitive martial artists talk shit about bruce now he is dead yet did not say shit when he was alive. Don’t that tell you something? It should do. Fact is he was not popular and people are 2 faced and have ego’s that are way to big for them. They saw themself as martial arts giants then along came a lil chinese guy telling and showing them how they were doing it all wrong. If they really believed bruce was not a real fighter then why the hell would they train with him let alone become his students. Now there is common sense and logic and some of you here proclaim you think and speak with logic. Oooooo keh lol.

  42. @ MysticNinjajay

    Stop making suppositions, get your facts straight.
    Bruce Lee wasn’t a kickboxer. Compared to Ali, Bruce was a nobody as a fighter.
    Bruce Lee said that a man with one year training in boxing and wrestling can beat any martial artist with 15 years of experience.
    Ali was a three world champion in boxing and one of the fastest heavyweight boxing champion ever. Moreover he seemed to have some basics in wrestling like you could see it in his exhibition with Kenny Jay.
    Besides, Bruce admitted that he’d be no match for Ali in a fight.

    According to his version, Bruce Lee bruised his fist in punching the back of WJM’s head. So he didn’t use correctly his Wing Chun’s punches.
    Bruce fought others opponents that seemed to share an interesting caracteristic : none of them have a name. Moreover, I’d be amazed that Bruce Lee had fought an opponent like Ali in a street fight.
    I’d bet that only in seeing Ali ready to fight him in a no-holds-barred fight, Bruce Lee would be scared to death. He wouldn’t be fool enough to engage Ali in combat and would have run to safety instead.
    It’d be wise indeed as Ali exceeded him by far in all fighting aspects.

    Don’t confuse Bruce Lee with the characters he has played in his movies.

    • @Avenger

      You’re the one who needs to get their facts straight. Let’s start with a source for this alleged quote of Bruce Lee that someone with 1 year of Boxing and Wrestling training could beat a Martial Artist with 15 years experience. I’ve heard it and have yet to find a source. It’s not in The Tao of Jeet Kune Do by the way, I looked. So find a source for your claim or admit it’s a bogus quote.

      I didn’t say Bruce Lee was a kickboxer but he was a Martial Artist who trained using a variety of kicks. If you can’t even afford him that then you’re just biased and out of touch with reality. He was good too. He was so good that professional fighters sought his instruction. He was powerful as well. Bob Wall, a Karate Heavyweight champion said that Bruce hurt him with kicks during their fight scenes. Some of the kicks were real as Bruce Lee wanted to add realism to his fights.

      You think that Bruce Lee would run in fear from a fight? Now you’re just talking trash! Bruce was more than an actor he was a world class Martial Artist highly respected by the Martial Arts community before he even became an actor and was so successful in the movies because he was a genius at fight choreography. He was in fantastic shape. He was very strong for his size and incredibly athletic. Your only real argument here is that he was smaller than Muhammad Ali and not a professional fighter. Well sorry to burst your bubble but professional fighters are not the only people who can fight. I’m not evens saying Bruce would beat Ali or Tyson I just wouldn’t count him out. The man had undeniable talent.

      • You must be a book-worm to give so much importance to Bruce’s quotes.
        Stick with your books, I’ll get the facts.
        Bruce trained in variety of kicks? Sure, there’s a footage of it :

        No doubt that pro fighters sought out to train with him after having watched it.
        You are naive to believe that. Joe Lewis stated that it was Bruce who sought him to make a deal : Lewis would tell that Bruce was his instructor and in return, Bruce got him into his business of giving private lessons to Hollywood’s celebrities. Bruce did the same with Mike Stone and Chuck Norris. The goal was to be seen as the instructor of the three greatest karate champions of the era to increase his reputation as a martial artist.

        Bruce’ scheme succeeded more than he had expected.
        Indeed, he was credited as a karate advisor for an episode of the serie “The Wrecking Crew”, though he barely knew anything of karate compared to Norris, Lewis and Stone. Norris played a small role in his episode while Lewis, Stone and Ed Parker were stuntmen.
        http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0065225/fullcredits?ref_=tt_cl_sm#cast

        Bruce wasn’t a kamikaze, he would have never engaged Ali in a straight-up street fight. Be lucid and stop talking bullshit.
        He was in fantastic shape, except the fact that he damaged permanently his fourth sacral nerve by lifting weights without a proper warming-up.
        You wrote : “Your only real argument here is that he was smaller than Muhammad Ali and not a professional fighter”
        That’s TWO decisive arguments. Very few fighters can become pro fighters…and even much less of them could become an outstanding champion like Ali. It’s a plain fact, sorry if that upsets you.

        Moreover, I said that Ali was younger and more endurant than Bruce. He had a fighting spirit that exceeded by far the one of Bruce.
        Ali trained to be ready in actual combat, whereas Bruce trained to be ready in choregraphed fights. Huge difference.
        You stated previously that Lee could take Ali down easily, and now you say that you don’t consider that Bruce would beat Ali?
        You must have decided to go to the other side when I’ve demonstrated to you that Bruce Lee could have never taken down Ali.

        Wake up dude, Ali woud have crushed Bruce Lee. No matter if the bout is a boxing match, a grappling match or a no-holds-barred fight. Same verdict for an hypothetic bout between Lee and Tyson.
        Bruce had undeniable talent as an actor, not as a fighter.

      • Avenger: “Joe Lewis stated that it was Bruce who sought him to make a deal : Lewis would tell that Bruce was his instructor and in return, Bruce got him into his business of giving private lessons to Hollywood’s celebrities.”

        That is absolute BS!!!
        It is impossible to have an intelligent debate with you because you make up your ‘facts’ as you go along! Please post the interview where Lewis says this.
        Here is how Joe Lewis REALLY came to train with Bruce Lee:
        Lewis: “Little guys, in my opinion, have always been the best trainers. This is because tactically very early in their careers they figure out how to conquer larger opponents. Mike Stone, who I respect, CONVINCED ME to study with Bruce.”
        Link – http://www.bruceleedivinewind.com/joelewis.html

        Avenger: “The goal was to be seen as the instructor of the three greatest karate champions of the era to increase his reputation as a martial artist.”

        Wrong! Mike Stone sought out Lee on his own, and we just saw how Lewis came to train with Lee, and as for Norris? He saw Lee perform at Parker’s tournament, and met up with Lee at the hotel they were staying. They started training together at a later date due to each others schedules. When Blackbelt Magazine had ran the article in the late 1960′s where it says Lee was instructor to Lewis, Stone and Norris, not one of them demanded a retraction. All three knew the publisher (Mito Uyehara) so if they disagreed with the statement, Blackbelt surely would have printed one!.

        Avenger: “Bruce’ scheme succeeded more than he had expected.
        Indeed, he was credited as a karate advisor for an episode of the serie “The Wrecking Crew”, though he barely knew anything of karate compared to Norris, Lewis and Stone.”

        Bruce Lee was hired by the studio to choreograph all of the fights in that film. Karate was (and still is in many ways) a generic term for all things martial arts.
        Bruce Lee knew plenty about ‘Karate’ believe me…

        Avenger: “Bruce wasn’t a kamikaze, he would have never engaged Ali in a straight-up street fight. Be lucid and stop talking bullshit.”

        Since you knew Bruce Lee so well, why don’t you tell us what he told you about not wanting to engage Ali in a streetfight. I’d be real interested in what he said exactly.

        Avenger: “Moreover, I said that Ali was younger and more endurant than Bruce. He had a fighting spirit that exceeded by far the one of Bruce.
        Ali trained to be ready in actual combat, whereas Bruce trained to be ready in choregraphed fights. Huge difference.”

        Where on earth do you get your information?! Ali didn’t train for street combat.
        He fought in the safety of a ring, with gloves, rules, regulations and a referee. All these things are in place to KEEP A FIGHTER SAFE!
        Does that sound like a life threatening scenario to you?
        Lastly, Ali trained in preparation FOR a fight, just a few months prior to it. Then he did very little training until another fight was scheduled. That’s what it is like in the world of pro boxing!
        On the other hand, Bruce Lee trained every single day of his adult life.
        You are so illogical, I’m beginning to wonder if you and MMAJUNKIE are the same person?

        Avenger: “Wake up dude, Ali woud have crushed Bruce Lee. No matter if the bout is a boxing match, a grappling match or a no-holds-barred fight. Same verdict for an hypothetic bout between Lee and Tyson.
        Bruce had undeniable talent as an actor, not as a fighter.”

        Yeah…tell that to the long list of world champion fighters I had posted a while back. Now I’m convinced, you and MMAJUNKIE are the same person. No common sense at all.
        When Holmes & Berbick got into it in the parking lot of the Diplomat Hotel, it looked like two girls kicking and pawing one another. Then a few moments later, we see Holmes jump on Berbick from on top of a limo.That’s how those two ‘skilled’ boxers fight outside of the ring. In fact, their fight was so embarrassing, there is only edited footage available anymore…

      • MysticNinjajay

        @Avenger

        You put out a bogus quote and I corrected you. Don’t whine and resort to name-calling just because I showed you something you didn’t know. Work on your fact-checking. Your posts are getting ridiculous and lack substance. Bruce Lee was only 2 years younger than Muhammad Ali so the age difference was insignificant. In any case this is a fantasy fight so we should be talking prime vs. prime and who would win IF they fought not whether or not they would fight. That argument is pointless.

        I never said that Bruce Lee would take Muhammad Ali down easily. Now you’re just making stuff up. I said given his grappling training that it was possible. I also never said Bruce would for certain beat Ali I simply said it was possible given that Bruce Lee was an expert at many more fighting techniques than Ali. I give Bruce Lee a better chance against Boxers than Mixed Martial Artists because Boxers are only experts at punching.
        Bruce would have no advantages over a Mixed Martial Artist.

        We’re clearly not going to agree on this discussion and I am starting to see the futility in debating you as you’ve become increasingly emotional and disrespectful in your responses. You don’t think Bruce Lee had a chance at beating professional fighters. OK. I do. You’ve given your reasons and I’ve given mine.

        Bruce Lee didn’t just train for choreographed movies. He trained to perfect the art of fighting. Jeet Kune Do has been labeled as Scientific Street Fighting. It’s not perfect and neither was Bruce Lee but he was way ahead of his time when it came to understanding realistic and effective approaches to fighting which anyone who has read his notes and listened to his philosophy on Martial Arts can understand.

      • @ Nebula One

        The story is often one-sided with you.
        It’s stated in the book Bruce Lee The fighting spirit of Bruce Thomas, that Joe Lewis and Bruce Lee met for the first time at Wahshington Flower’s Hotel in 1967. Bruce called Lewis and proposed him to be his instructor, but Lewis turned his offer down at first. Then Stone convinced him to accept Bruce’s offer.
        http://books.google.fr/books?id=yE1HsGFasGYC&printsec=frontcover&hl=fr&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q=lewis&f=false

        Here’s Norris’ account about his first meeting with Bruce Lee :

        Norris made three interesting revelations :
        1) Bruce and him met in the tournament that took place in New York in 1968 in which Norris competed to earn the World Title.
        2) Bruce was renowned for his role in the TV Serie The Green Hornet, to the point he was the guest of the tournament.
        3) Norris implied that Bruce was good, but didn’t play in the same category that a professional fighter.

        Bruce knew plenty of karate? Let’ consider one of his quote this book worm MysticNinjajay has provided us :
        ” The best fighter is not a Boxer, Karate or Judo man. The best fighter is someone who can adapt on any style. He kicks too good for a Boxer, throws too good for a Karate man, and punches too good for a Judo man.” So a karate man would be helpless against a specialist in throws like wrestlers or judokas? However, there are some throws in karate :
        http://www.karatebyjesse.com/funakoshi-9-throws-shotokan-karate/
        Bruce Lee probably didn’t know that.

        How do I know that Bruce Lee wouldn’t engage Ali in a street fight? You’ve already answered it smartass. Indeed, you already know that Bruce Lee has stated that he’d be kill by Ali in a fight. You’ve told us that Bruce was speaking about a boxing fight, you know a fight where the fighters are protected by rules, gloves, referees, ect. You know, all these things are in place to KEEP A FIGHTER SAFE!
        So if we run by your hypothesis, Bruce admitted that he’d be killed in a “safe” fight!
        It would be even WORSE in a no-holds-barred fight, genius!

        Bruce trained every single day of his adult life? It’s odd you haven’t told us if he has applied his training in real fights. Don’t tell me you’re clueless about Bruce’s fights!
        Ali, however, trained AND fought against skilled fighters. Huge difference.

        Eventually, you should answer to my post in which I’ve questioned the “fact” that Lewis would have dumped Ali of his back TWICE, instead of trying to uncover my secret identity and making an arse of yourself.

      • @ MysticNinjajay

        I’m calling names? You’ve written :” Bruce doesn’t have to be a world champion Jiu-Jitsu expert or Professional Wrestler to take Ali to the ground? He did know enough about grappling to use several effective techniques. Read Tao of Jeet Kune Do”. Not only you’ve implied that Bruce Lee would be able to take Ali to the ground, but you’ve stated that you’ve based your whole argument on a book!
        I’ve just called a spade a spade. You’re a book-worm, nothing wrong about it.

        Besides, your hypothesis of Bruce being able to take Ali down has been refuted by two facts. First, Gene Lebell taught grappling to Bruce and he had troubles to take down and submit an average middleweight retreated boxer, despite the huge difference of size in the advantage of Lebell.
        Then I’ve showed you the exhibition fight beween Ali and the wrestler Kenny Jay. Ali was able to perform some sweeps and nice take downs. That’s a proof that it needs an experienced wrestler to take Ali down and pin him.
        Bruce would have never been able to take Ali down. What you can read on a book doesn’t imply necessarily that Bruce could apply it effectively.
        Though there’s nothing wrong about being a book-worm, it’s a pity to not recognize his own mistakes. You can’t judge someone’s fighting abilities just by reading a book, you’ve to talk about his fights.

        Ali was indeed 2 years younger than Lee. It doesn’t seem significant but you are forgetting one fact. From the early 1970′s, Bruce had damaged seriously his body by training extensively and unwisely within 2 years.
        Bruce Lee would be an expert in many more fighting techniques than Ali? You must be blind or else, you must be joking. Once again, watch this footage :

        Bruce looks like a beginner while punching the bag. He doesn’t look an expert either in kicks. Maybe he should have practiced with real experts instead of “perfecting” this way the art of fighting.

        “Jeet Kune Do has been labeled as Scientific Street Fighting”. That would explain why Jeet Kune Do has been mainly tested by Bruce Lee in his movies during choregraphed fights.
        Bruce was renowned for his movies, whereas Ali was renowned for his fights.

        “You don’t think Bruce Lee had a chance at beating professional fighters. I do” I’m glad to see you’ve understood my point of view.
        You should really ask yourself why Bruce Lee is renowned for his movies and not his fights.

    • @Avenger

      You called me a bookworm for correcting you on your misquote of Bruce Lee. You did it as an insult. That’s childish. You’re also being the proverbial pot calling the kettle black since you too cited a book. So you’re a bookworm. All of us are. I’m not offended it just means you’re smart and like to read a lot but I do think you’re being childish by using it as an insult and to chastise me (e.g. “The bookworm MysticNinjaJay”). Grow up.

      This is a fantasy fight so we can use any incarnation of Bruce Lee vs. any incarnation of Muhammad Ali that we want. I chose to speak of Ali vs. Lee at the same age to eliminate age as a variable and while I’m at it let’s say this happens before Bruce injures his back or just throw out the back injury altogether and assume he’s 100% healthy. Don’t say it’s not fair. Bruce is dead and Ali has Parkinson’s Disease so in order for us to make this fantasy fight sensible we have to eliminate variables like age, death, morality (e.g. would these two even fight each other?) and injuries.

      Even eliminating those variables Ali is still the bigger fighter with a reach advantage in addition to an advantage in fighting experience. Even with those advantages I still give Bruce Lee a chance because he knew a lot of techniques that could be utilized to beat a Boxer. I’ve seen the video of him training many times and I see no problem with it. Besides that’s just practice and a very short glimpse in to his training. I’m rejecting the Kenny Jay fight as evidence of anything because it’s obviously a worked wrestling match. By that logic we could use Chuck Norris’ fight scene with Bruce Lee as evidence that Bruce could beat and kill a Karate champion.

      Do you really not think that fight was a work? Kenny Jay said the fight was not rehearsed. Do you understand what that means? It means like all other professional wrestling matches it has a scripted outcome. They didn’t rehearse it but they did improvise. It seems that Ali had some professional wrestling training since he was able to perform those sweeps and throws but it was obviously a fake fight. Ali was clearly pulling his punches. If you’ve watched enough Boxing and Professional Wrestling matches like I have you can tell a real punch from a fake punch.

      Bottomline:

      We don’t really know who would win in a fight. I personally am not calling a winner here. Bruce would have to worry about Ali’s punches and Ali would have to worry about Bruce’s Martial Arts techniques including a variety of striking and grappling moves. Ali trained to compete in Boxing. Bruce trained to win street fights and he studied all of the major Martial Arts to come up with the most scientific approach to street fighting.

      Now like I said Jeet Kune Do wasn’t perfect and Bruce Lee wasn’t invincible however Bruce did base his knowledge of street fighting on real life fights of his own in addition to studying the various fighting disciplines of the world including Boxing. He knew how to beat a Boxer in a street fight at least in theory. By the way Avenger I can’t believe you said that Bruce Lee didn’t know that there were throws in Karate. Do you realize that Bruce Lee trained with some of the best Martial Artists in the world and had a library full of books (another bookworm!) on Martial Arts? He knew a hell of a lot about the major Martial Arts of the world. He studied them in and out. It is true that your average Karateka focuses more on striking than anything else and a skilled Judoka is better at throwing than your average Karateka. That’s what Bruce was referring to in his quote. But he’s comparing disciplines in a Rock-Paper-Scissors style for convenience. He knew full well that it wasn’t as simple as that.

      In truth it’s not the style that matters it’s the person behind the style. You can beat someone with just punches so while a Martial Artist may be good at striking overall a Boxer could still win a street fight with just punches. All of this is speculation. I believe that Bruce Lee should not be underestimated as a fighter nor overestimated. He could whoop some ass and he could also be beaten. I believe that among professional fighters he had a better chance against Boxers than he did against Mixed Martial Artists. This conversation would be more interesting if Avenger decided to talk about Bruce Lee vs. Anderson Silva and Georges St. Pierre rather than Muhammad Ali and Mike Tyson.

      • I’ve quoted a book because it’s the only way that a bookwork such as you and this story teller Nebula One can understand.
        You believe on what you read, I believe on what I see. You trust the words, I trust the facts.
        Bruce is renowned for his movies, not his fights. Someone who has never practiced martial arts could be amazed by the movies of Bruce and his book. However, with experience, everybody would acknowledge that a movie could twist reality and a book isn’t always objective.
        You judge Bruce’s fighting abilities from his movies and the book of Tao of Jeet Kune Do. What about Bruce’s fights? You’ve seen only theory, what about the practical approach?

        Ali really fought and he showed in fighting skilled fighters that his techniques were effective.
        You’ve contradicted yourself. You refuse to consider the bout between Ali and Kenny Jay as an evidence, and yet you admit that Ali must have been trained in pro wrestling to be able to perform those sweeps and takedowns.
        What about the fight between Lebell and Savage? Lebell had a lot of troubles to take Savage down and submit him, despite the difference of size to his advantage. It would have been way more harder against a boxing champion like Ali.
        Lebell taught grappling to Bruce Lee. So Bruce’d unlikely being able to use effectively his “grappling moves” against Ali.

        Bruce based his knowledge on street fighting, huh? Why had he collected so many books in martial arts? Bruce was more an intellectual and a bookworm but barely a fighter.
        “Ali would have to worry about Bruce’s Martial Arts techniques including a variety of striking and grappling moves”. Ali wouldn’t be worried about Bruce’s punches and kicks. Ali was able to perform quite good some pro wrestling moves and his huge advantage of size would cancel Bruce’s grappling.
        Bruce wouldn’t be able to apply his techniques against Ali. Ali would have defeated any incarnations of Lee.

        Bruce implied that a man that could use throwing techniques would be able to dispose easily of a karateka. However, there are some throws in karate.

        I already told you that Bruce Lee wouldn’t have a chance against any professional fighters. Now you ask me about Bruce vs Anderson Silva or Bruce vs GSP? Bruce would be destroyed of course!
        That’d be logical because both Anderson Silva and GSP are pro fighters in a time which techniques have evolved a lot compared to Bruce’s era.
        Don’t mix apples and oranges.

      • Stuart Leggat

        for fuck`s sake…what a way of reasoning you have…i`ll tell this wee story again and this time i hope it lights a spark of understanding somewhere within that thing between your ears…

        re Bruce not being a competition fighter and therefore a proven fighter in your eyes and others…he was teacher to several world champions so they obviously rated him big-time in what he knew and could demonstrate…

        my buddy, Bill Little, from Glasgow, was a 3 times world champion kickboxer back in the 80s when it just started to become popular over here…he was a knockout specialist and, like most people who fight their way to become world champions, could take a mega amount of punishment…HOWEVER, his teacher – 8th Dan Tommy Morris, also from Glasgow and who, like Bruce, had never been in a competition fight in his life, but was still one of the hardest and most able guys on the planet, could, according to Bill, destroy him, no problem and also beat any of his many other full contact champions who learned under Tommy…Tommy was around the same height as Bruce and a bit heavier made…do you now understand???

      • Stuart Leggat

        here is the all-time world champion Joe Lewis saying that he reckons wrestlers could beat all other fighting styles…he says this right at the end of the interview…

      • Stuart Leggat

        Joe Lewis comments on Bruce Lee…read what he says at 2min, 25secs…i found his statement on Lee breathtaking, especially from the greatest fighting guy ever…if this doesn`t make an impression on you, get some therapy…i`ll be happy to chip in a few shekels towards it…lol

      • Stuart Leggat

        sorry – i posted the video of Joe Lewis before i`d seen the very last statement from him where he say, on camera; “In my opinion, Bruce was, by far, the greatest ever”….

        that`s it for me – argument over…when a proven fighter like Lewis, voted the greatest fighter ever, says Bruce was, BY FAR, the greatest ever…there is absolutely no argument to the contrary and it`s time just to try and appreciate what the guy must have been like to be around and see in action and, also, it`s time to be so very, very sad that this one-in-a-lifetime-fighting-phenomenon called Bruce Lee, died so very young and way before his time…

        can you comprehend just how good someone would have to be for the greatest fighter ever, to say this about another fighter??? the mind boggles just trying to imagine why and when another top martial artist said Bruce seemed “Other worldly” when in action…this complements Joe`s opinion of Bruce PERFECTLY…

      • MysticNinjajay

        @Avenger

        Your continued patronizing comments calling me a bookworm shows emotional instability on your part. Again grow up. There is no need to be hostile or condescending. We’re discussing fantasy fights for Christ’s sake you don’t have to get personal. Stop acting like a jackass.

        You continue to bring up the Kenny Jay vs. Muhammad Ali fight as if that has some relevance to real fighting. Do you think that was a real fight? Kenny Jay was a jobber. In professional wrestling terminology that means he was a wrestler who’s main job was to lose to the more popular wrestlers. They put him in the ring with Ali because he was good at selling himself getting his ass kicked. There’s an interview with Kenny Jay discussing the fight where he confirms my belief that Ali had some Professional Wrestling training prior to their match.

        Now Kenny Jay does say that Ali dazed him with a punch but this is the world of Professional Wrestling we’re talking about here where Wrestlers pretend that their fights are real even in interviews. We can’t gauge Ali’s grappling skills or takedown defense from this fight because it wasn’t real. It was a work. A fake wrestling match. Ali pulled punches, performed sweeps and throws that were set up and Kenny Jay did his job, losing the fight on purpose to make Ali look good as a promotion for the Ali-Inoki fight. Inoki was also a Professional Wrestler but their fight had more credibility because Inoki was known for shoot fights and Ali sustained some serious damage from those kicks. If it was fake there would be no need for rules restrictions. So if you want to see Ali vs. a grappler in a real fight the closet you’ll get is vs. Inoki even though he wasn’t allowed to grapple (yet some how still got Ali down).

        Here is Ali against another Wrestler who makes short work of him:

        Now are you going to use Ali vs. Gorilla Monsoon as evidence of Ali’s fighting skills? That shit is fake. I admit that I used to love wrestling as a kid. My favorite wrestler was The Rock. I know alot about it because I used to watch it but it wasn’t real. Stop insulting everyone’s intelligence claiming that Muhammad Ali was in a real fight where he suplexed a guy while wearing Boxing gloves. That’s ridiculous.

        You talk about comparing apples to oranges…what the hell does Gene Lebell vs. Milo Savage have to do with Muhammad Ali vs. Bruce Lee? Lebell himself was surprised by the difficulty he had with Savage who wore a Judo gi to their fight. He believed Savage studied some Judo prior to the fight. Maybe he was right and maybe Savage’s strength and athleticism played a factor who knows. It has nothing to do with Lee vs. Ali. At best one can say that Bruce would have trouble getting Ali to the ground because he was a lot smaller than him but it’s still not impossible. Personally I think Ali would have had more trouble with Bruce’s kicks than his grappling. Mixing it all up however would make him a difficult opponent for a fighter only trained with his hands and reflex trained to defend and attack the upper body.

        Now hopefully you don’t go on another emotional tirade with all of this bookworm babble and other insulting shit and just stick to logical arguments. I agree with you that Anderson Silva and Georges St. Pierre or any other top Mixed Martial Artist would beat Bruce Lee. But I don’t agree that just because Bruce Lee was an actor that didn’t compete doesn’t mean he couldn’t step in to the realm of real fighting and do damage. He wasn’t just an actor he was a Martial Artist and w world class one at that. To anyone with any sense that does mean something when it comes to fighting skills.

  43. @ MysticNinjajay

    Gene Lebell was an heavyweight judo champion amateur whereas Milo Savage was an average middleweight boxer, who retired from boxing competition when the fight occured and was 9 years older than Lebell.
    Despite all those advantages, Lebell struggled to take down Savage and managed to choke him in the fouth round!

    Ali was a much more skilled and dangerous fighter than Savage.
    Ali was younger, taller, much heavier (at least 75lbs between Ali and Bruce in favor of Ali) and much more experienced in fighting than Bruce Lee.
    Moreover, Ali had a better reach than him. He had the ability to gauge the distance that exceeded by far the one of Bruce. He had also a better footwork and rhythm.
    Ali was much more resistant than Bruce and had a better stamina than him.
    Ali was renowned to be the fastest heavyweight boxing champion that had ever existed. His jab was faster than the one of the great Sugar Ray Robinson! He knocked out Sonny Liston with the anchor punch while Sonny had hrown him a jab! Outstanding timing demonstrated by Ali!

    Moreover, we can see Ali able to perform some sweeps and take downs during the exhibition fight with Kenny Jay. You can think it’s been staged or somehow, but can you tell me in which occasion Bruce has demonstrated some grappling moves? He did that only in his movies, in which he had choregraphed the fights and scripted them to make him the victor everytime.
    The take down performed by Ali was real, man. He did that on the ring against a wrestler whereas Bruce never stepped in the ring.

    Besides, how can you be sure Bruce Lee would be able to perform all the techniques he has learnt in an actual combat? He even didn’t manage to apply effectively his Wing Chun’s techniques against WJM, though he had studied this martial art for a long time!

    Eventually, Ali demonstrated that he had a great mental in challenging terrific fighters such as Foreman, Liston, Frazier, ect.
    He challenged the best and defeated them. By doing so, he became The Greatest!
    Ali was a great fighter, Bruce was a great actor.
    Ali won real fights, Bruce won fictional fights.
    Ali had the edge over Bruce Lee in every fields of fighting.
    In a no-holds-barred fight, it would be a decisive victory for Ali.

  44. @ Nebula One

    You wrote :”Avenger, one other thing…I am a huge Ali fan like millions of others. The difference between you and me is, I am fully aware of a boxer’s limitations, and how to exploit them. If the fact that Inoki got Ali to the ground on more than one occasion, and virtually squatted on his face, or Joe Lewis dumping Ali on his back TWICE in a matter of moments doesn’t convince you that a fighter with the skill to attack and defend the entire body will pose tremendous problems for boxers, then there is no reasoning with you logically. You are lost in a world of make believe.”

    Since you’ve considered the story in which Joe Lewis would have dumped Ali on his back twice as a FACT, I guess you won’t have any problems to answer those questions :

    1) I haven’t found neither photos nor videos of this press conference in which Lewis would have dumped ALi on his back. How could you be sure this event REALLY occured if there aren’t any tracks?

    2) How Lewis, who according to his claim was pursuing acting not fighting at this time, could have been in the physical condition to be fast enough to surprise Ali like that?

    3) Lewis would have performed a fireman’s carry takedowm on Ali. Lewis wanted to become a professional wrestler before having the bug for karate. He never became a professional wrestler.
    However, according to black Belt June 1967, Lewis was renowned to be specialized in Greco-Roman Wrestling (Article Tournament of Champion).
    Greco-Roman wrestling allows all throws, except the ones which are achieved by contacting your opponent’s lower body with your limbs.
    Here’s a video of a fireman’s carry takedown :

    The fireman’s carry takedown is strictly forbidden in Greco-Roman wrestling because you hook the lower body of your opponent with this technique.
    How Lewis could have learnt it?

    4) Lewis would have stated that he feinted Ali with a shoulder fake in which Ali reacted to before shooting at his leg. I know that Lewis trained extensively in boxing with Joey Orbillo, but how the hell could he have succeeded in feinting such an experienced and a great boxing champion like Ali?

    5) Even if we’d conceive that Lewis knew how to perform the fireman’s carry takedown despite the fact that this technique is forbidden in Greco-Roman wrestling. Lewis didn’t train in grappling neither with Bruce nor Orbillo. He trained in this wrestling (when he was 14) before joining the Marines in 1962.
    How could he have performed successfully a move that he had perhaps rarely used during 14 years (at least he never used it in his entire career of professional fighter)?

    I wish you luck to answer those questions and provide me your sources.

    Oh, I forgot. Here’s a bonus for you.

    Ali didn’t look so helpless when he was confronted to the wrestler Kenny Jay in 1976.
    Ali was able to perform some nice takedowns and sweeps.
    One thing is sure : it definetely needs an experienced and still active wrestler to take Ali down and pin him, not a former Greco-roman wrestler like Lewis that never became professional in this field and didn’t practice it for a long time.

    You think that I’m lost in a world of make believe. However, despite my imagination and incredulity, if you want to make me believe that Lewis has succeeded in performing a take down on Ali, you should better have your facts checked.

    • to suggest that Joe Lewis, the greatest competition martial artist of all time, would not know all about the fireman`s carry takedown and be expert in carrying it out, is, quite simply, NUTS!!

      • First, Joe Lewis is considered as the greatest karate fighter of all times due to his outstanding performances in karate tournaments (kumite and kata) and his kickboxing career.
        Then, Lewis never made the fireman’s carry takedown in his career of karate fighter and kickboxer.
        So your comment is unfounded…and because you haven’t even taken the care to provide us some reliable source to support your view, I must conclude that you’re quite simply NUTS!!

  45. “have to ask you then on your frank opinion on the opinion of James DeMile when he said he`d put his money on Bruce against anyone, from any background and any weight in a no-holds-barred, no rules fight…”

    JDM can do what he wants with his money, but don’t forget how much marketing is in his statements. Read his interview on Temple of The Unknown. He states the best BL as fighter was the early Bruce Lee (meaning, exactly at time when they worked together and JDM trained under him). He stated he saw BL later, he evolved as knowledges, but he did nothing better than in his earlier time. He said JKD is just for art and movies, that’s not his fighting, hinting those are dust in the students eyes to distract their attention. He said all his early and real skills are lost art for the JKD-ers (“because he wanted it so”). He stated he is convinced he would have fought in his late days just like he did in his early days.On short, like saying “Bruce was the best 4 eva’ and i, JDM, only know his real fighting skill and arsenal for actual fighting… i am like the last of the mohicans”. Don’t believe me, just read that interview.

    Also Demile marketed himself as 2 years boxing champion in Air Force, holding a record of 128-0. Now he retracted all those. Actually he did it gradually, first saying “he was undefeated boxer in Air Force”…something very easy to interpret. More recently he said:

    “The fights were refered to as “smokers” and were often only
    three rounds at two minutes a round. We would often fought two or three
    times in one day depending on how many competitors there were. It sounded like I was a good fighter, but to tell the truth the guys I fought were
    not that good. They were goldbricks like me who did not want to go
    outside into the cold. The good fighters were in the Navy and Marines,
    which we never had to fight. ”

    And of course, you can find the All Wings Air Force Hw boxing champs list since early ’50 but he is not there. Say what you want, it is not a good start to built credibility for yourself and then to speak on others.

  46. @Stuart, you wrote this:
    “Between Wing Chun and JKD”, Glover states, Lee could land a punch in around five hundredths of a second (0.05 second) from 3 feet away, and could close from 5 feet away in around eight hundredths of a second (0.08 second). While Glover’s own times from three feet were between 11 and 18 hundredths of a second (0.11 and 0.18 second). Closing from a distance they were in the low twenties.”

    I want to assume you are a fan, not a fanboy, believing BL could fly just because someone would write that in a book.

    Let’s take the most subjective part here for the beginning. 0.05 seconds (Bruce result) and 0.11s (for Glover) are more than enough to be absolute World records and to be recorded in Guiness Book. It’s not suspect that none of those results are recorded? Of course, it is very convenient and easy to say ” perhaps they did not care about (to be omologated) ” but so, anybody can make big claims about himself or about one of his fellows. If they did it once, he could did it every time and could omologate that.

    Now the more objective thing: let away Bruces result, just take the Glovers one. 3 feet means a full extended jab even with a slight stepping in (as movement itself i mean). 0.11s means about 2.5-2.6 frames from a 24fps film. It is known Alis jab took 6 frames from a 24fps film. Noe believe if you like Bruce could have a faster jab than Ali (it is possible, but we would talk about percents there). But Glover faster than Ali? And TWICE as fast. It is more than ridiculous.

    Also Glover wrote a lot of nonsenses in that book, some of them contradicted by BL statements. Glover wrote in the early ’60 Bruce did a demonstration on a stage, a workout to a wooden WC dummy. 6 guys ( Glover and another 5 fellows were holding the dummy as hard they could. As soon Bruce attacked the dummy with his punches, they all found themselves flying all around the stage. Aside that looks like a cartoon movie, Bruce Lee in his own description of his fight with Wong Man Jack stated he got swollen fists punching the guy back of the head and in the back. And he did not knock him down, but he had to catch him, put him down and gnp him. The fact Glover tried to explain as BL punches loosed from their effectiveness because WMJ kept running makes no difference at all, because again, Bruce himself said he punched WMJ hard enough to get swollen fists:

    “I’d gotten into a fight in San Francisco with a Kung-Fu cat, and after a brief encounter the son-of-a-bitch started to run. I chased him and, like a fool, kept punching him behind his head and back. Soon my fists began to swell from hitting his hard head. ”

    People told all kind of things about him, some of them real, some of them just for purpose to creating aula and myths around him. You saw that video in his backyard. Why would i believe Coburn as he broke a 150lbs heavy bag with a side kick or rumors as he could send a 300lbs back towards the ceiling when the actual footage contradict by a mile those claims? He is displayed doing several (maybe 8 or 10 attempts) running side kicks to the shield and to that 70lbs white cotton heavy bag and they all look the same. They are good side kicks, but very human. The about 130lbs shield holder didn’t fly and the 70lbs bag wasn’t sent up to ceiling, neither got broken. Why would we believe fantastic claims when none of them are confirmed by those sequences. If 10 fellows tell about a friend he could do 100 pull ups no problem, and you see him on video doing 25 and being almost to the limit and giving up, would you continue to believe he can do 100?

    Bruce Lee was capable in many things, but seriously, the draw line between myths and reality got for many for long time lost.

  47. There’s a nice debate going on here. I have to say that Nebula One has really done his homework and clearly established that Bruce Lee had a great reputation among the Martial Arts community. He was a world class Martial Artist and it really shouldn’t be a controversy over whether he was a competent fighter. He was in great shape, a committed Martial Artist and knew a wide variety of techniques. His philosophy on Martial Arts was also sound. He was clearly ahead of his time. I own the Tao of Jeet Kune Do and you can tell that Bruce put a lot of thought in to effective fighting which anyone with some experience can see.

    Now how good was he? I feel that that is something we can only speculate on. With respect to Jim Kelly it is an exaggeration to say that he is unbeatable. Anyone can be beaten. I think Kelly had great respect for Bruce and wanted to make it clear that Bruce was on another level when it came to fighting and that it was insulting to say that he or anyone else could simply beat him just like that. That’s what I took from the comment.

    Could Bruce Lee beat Mike Tyson? That’s an interesting question. I agree with Nebula One that we shouldn’t just dismiss the possibility that Bruce would lose to bigger men just because they are bigger. Size does matter but it isn’t everything. Smaller men have beaten bigger men because they had the skills to exploit their weaknesses. Bruce’s side kick to the leg is a good strategy to employ against a Boxer who is indeed reflex trained to attack and defend the upper body. However I’ve seen this technique attempted in MMA fights (Jon Jones has been using it a lot lately) and I’ve yet to see anyone actually get taken out with it. In theory it should do a lot of damage if it connects but it’s hard to land in just the right place. Tyson also has experience with street fighting so he would not be completely lost and if he hit Bruce with a good punch he could not him out. But if Bruce could keep the fight in kicking range or outgrapple Tyson he could theoretically win the fight.

    I think Bruce would have more trouble against elite Mixed Martial Artists than world champion Boxers. Imagine Bruce vs. someone like Cung Le in their prime. Cung knows all of the techniques Bruce was famous for and he has applied them in full-contact competition. Add that to the size advantage and I believe Cung would take Bruce. A whole lot of MMA fighters would beat Bruce especially the grapplers. Bruce trained grappling with Gene Lebell but he wasn’t rolling everyday and tapping BJJ Black Belts. He would have a lot of problems with any of the top MMA fighters on the ground especially someone like Georges St. Pierre who has good wrestling and submission grappling skills. Bruce was a great Martial Artist for his time but we should acknowledge his limitations.

    Now as for the Wong Jack Man fight I read Michael Dorgan’s article on the internet that was published in Official Karate magazine. I don’t find Wong Jack Man’s account of the fight contained in that article to be credible. First of all according to Dorgan Wong claims that the fight lasted 20-25 minutes and that he fought defensively and avoided using kicks because they were too lethal. I have two problems with that. First of all I find it unrealistic to believe that two Traditional Martial Artists had a no-holds barred standup fight that lasted 20-25 minutes. Not without a lot of stalling. If the fight had any kind of pace they would be completely exhausted after a couple of minutes.

    MMA fighters train to go through intense cardio training to fight for 15-25 minutes and they get breaks between rounds yet most of them are exhausted once they reach the 4th and 5th Rounds. Secondly if Wong Jack Man believed that he could kill Bruce Lee with his kicks he had an unrealistic perception of his own fighting ability. He did not possess deadly kicks. Claiming that reveals his ignorance of real combat. Bruce’s account on the other hand is more believable. While he says he made short work of the Kung Fu cat he fought in San Francisco he does acknowledge that he bruised his hands hitting the back of his head and that he was unusually exhausted after the fight which only lasted about 3 minutes. This is entirely believable. If you are familiar with the chain punches of Wing Chun you know that they rely on speed over accuracy so your opponent is lying on his stomach and you are going berserk on him hitting him in the back you can easily damage your own fists hitting if you are hitting a hard surface like someone’s skull.

    What Bruce described was him over exerting himself and using a flawed striking technique which did as much damage to him as his opponent. He apparently beat Wong in to verbally submitting but wore himself out and bruised his hands in the process. This encouraged him to improve his cardio and reevaluate his fighting style. Wong on the other hand felt humiliated after Bruce spoke publicly about the fight and wanted a rematch to redeem himself. I too would like to see evidence of this supposedly written challenge. I know it was a long time ago but surely some historian can track it down if it was published in a newspaper.

    I really feel that Bruce Lee should be remembered more for his contribution to Martial Arts culture than his fighting ability. His presented us with an unforgettable iconic image of a Martial Artist that made Martial Arts popular world wide and provided us with excellent knowledge on the Martial Arts in general. He should be respected for that. I don’t know how good of a fighter he was but I imagine he was good. He was not a demi-god. We don’t need to deify the man to respect him but he was not a scrub either. He could fight and he did fight he just didn’t have a professional fight record and didn’t record his fights on video. But he didn’t need to do that to convince the people he trained with which included some of the greatest Martial Artists and Professional Fighters of the time that he was a world class Martial Artist with impressive skills.

    • have to ask you then on your frank opinion on the opinion of James DeMile when he said he`d put his money on Bruce against anyone, from any background and any weight in a no-holds-barred, no rules fight…he said this not long ago and with his background in no rules and no weight division fighting, you`ve got to sit up and take note of what he`s saying.

      As for Kelly…he also said, in his opinion, Bruce was the greatest martial artist who ever lived…high praise indeed from a proven fighter and world champion who, no doubt at all, was well aware of the abilities of all the other great and proven martial artists…what did he see and experience with Bruce, that makes him, unashamedly, say this…

      • MysticNinjajay

        I think that enough quality Martial Artists and Professional Fighters have said good things about Bruce Lee to believe that they are telling the truth when they say that he was a great fighter. But you also have to consider that these people were his friends and likely feel obligated to say good things about him to defend his legacy. When James Demile says that Bruce Lee could beat anyone in a no rules street fight regardless of size or background you have to ask yourself is that realistic?

        Is it realistic for instance for a 135 pound Martial Artist from the 1970s to beat any world champion Mixed Martial Artist regardless of experience or size? Bruce Lee could beat Jose Aldo, Anthony Pettis, Georges St. Pierre, Anderson Silva, Chris Weidman, Jon Jones, Junior Dos Santos and Cain Velasquez? He could beat all of them? What was Bruce Lee doing that these guys weren’t doing? I can tell you what Bruce Lee wasn’t doing. He wasn’t sparring full-contact daily in preparation for and competed in a full-contact combat sport that allows a wide variety of striking and grappling techniques. He wasn’t doing that. Nor was he constantly getting in to street fights after he made it in to Hollywood.

        He did train hard and he apparently accepted challenges if you believe stories like Bob Wall’s about Bruce beating up an extra on Enter the Dragon. But he was training most of the time not actually fighting. I would put a world class Mixed Martial Artist who fights the best in the world 3 times a year over a Martial Artist who occasionally fights nobodies any day. So no disrespect to James Demile but I think he would lose his money if we were able to put his claim to the test. Bruce wasn’t unbeatable and would probably lose to a lot of modern fighters including Mixed Martial Artists, Boxers and Kickboxers and maybe even some Traditional Martial Artists. Bruce wasn’t the only Martial Artist who could fight. But I also think if he were alive today in his prime he could whoop a lot of guys asses including some Professional fighters. Realistically I just doubt he would beat everybody.

      • I’ve just found out that DeMile’s assertion, according to which Bruce would beat anybody no matter their size, weight and background, has been refuted by…Bruce Lee himself.
        Here’s the answer Bruce Lee has given to Bolo Yeung to the question about the outcome of an hypotetical fight between him and Ali :”Look at my hand. It’s a little Chinese hand. He’d kill me”.
        Here’s the scanned page where I’ve read it :
        http://s31.photobucket.com/user/Cero666/media/scan0049.jpg.html
        Bruce knew he’d never be a match for Ali, and pointed out the difference of size to his disadvantage.
        Looks like this DeMile has pronounced an outright lie.

        I think this confession of Bruce Lee will close the debate about the outcome of a fight between him and Tyson. Because Bruce Lee himself has recognized he couldn’t handle Ali, then we must conclude that he would be powerless against Tyson.

      • Avenger: “Bruce Lee has given to Bolo Yeung to the question about the outcome of an hypotetical fight between him and Ali :”Look at my hand. It’s a little Chinese hand. He’d kill me”.

        They were discussing Lee ‘boxing’ Ali. This piece of the story was taken out of context. The story in it’s entirety can be found in several books. There is a bit of a glimpse as to the fact that this is so in the segment you had presented. Here is also what this snippet of the article said:
        “Bruce set up a wide full length mirror to reflect Ali’s image from the screen (Lee was brilliant for coming up with this idea). Bruce was looking into the mirror, moving along with Ali. Bruce’s right hand followed Ali’s right hand. Ali’s left foot followed Bruce’s left foot. Bruce was fighting in Ali’s shoes. “Everyone says I must fight Ali someday. I’m studying every move he makes. I’m getting to know how he thinks and feels.”

        Since Lee was emulating Ali’s ‘every move’, he was clearly thinking in terms of how he would best beat Ali at his own game…boxing.
        If he were in an anything goes fight with Ali,. It wouldn’t matter how Ali moved because he wouldn’t be playing Ali’s game. Not only is that exactly in line with the context of the story, It makes perfect sense!

        Bruce Lee also said this to the international press on very many occasions:
        “To tell you the truth? I could beat any man in the world!” – Bruce Lee

        Avenger…I have a reply to some of your questions from a previous post, as you had brought up some good points I’ll address when I get the time.

      • MysticNinjajay

        @Stuart Leggat

        I agree that Bruce Lee would be a force to be reckoned with if he trained in MMA even for a short length of time because he picked up on things quickly and was already in great shape with a lot of skills and sound philosophy on approaching Martial Arts. All he would need is the right training and more fighting experience. His speed was indeed spectacular.

    • You stated that it really shouldn’t be a controversy over whether Bruce Lee was a competent fighter. A fighter is renowned for his fights.
      We should analyze this issue by treating this question : Was Bruce Lee renowned for his fights?
      From what I’ve read on this blog, it seems there’s only one opponent whose identity has been defined : Wong Jack Man.
      Only one fight? That doesn’t make Bruce renowned for his fights.

      Let’s analyze this fight.
      There are different accounts of this bout.
      On the one hand, according to Bruce’s version, the fight would have lasted 3 minutes with a decisive victory of Bruce. However, he damaged his fists in punching the back head of WJM while chasing him. How a competent fighter could have made such a mistake?
      On the other hand, according to WJM, the fight would have lasted an unexpectedly 20-25 min. WJM wouldn’t have use his kicks because he thought it would be too deadly, a statement revealing his lack of street fighting experience like you’ve pointed out.

      First, it seems that Bruce hasn’t been able to perform this famous kick that would give the edge over Tyson.
      Then, he wasn’t so experienced to have made such a mistake of punching his opponent at the back of his head.
      Eventually, WJM wasn’t an experienced fighter either.

      Despite of this, you consider that if Bruce could keep the fight in kicking range or outgrapple Tyson, he could theoretically win the fight.
      First Tyson was a terrific heavyweight boxing champion, so he weighed more than 200lbs whereas Bruce was 135lbs soaking wet. How could you expect him to outgrapple Tyson?
      Then, Bruce hadn’t used a low kick against WJM, probably because he was more skilled his hands techniques with his experience in Wing Chun. If he couldn’t make such a move against WJM, how could you think he would do it against Tyson, who was much more experienced, powerful, skilled and fast than WJM?
      Eventually, the bout with WJM questions greatly the statement of this reliable James DeMile in which Bruce’d have gotten the best of him in no time in their first encounter, despite the fact that DeMile boasted to be a 225lbs experienced street fighter at this time. How Bruce Lee could have easily get the upper hand on such a man and struggled against a Kung Fu cat like WJM during 3 minutes?

      Besides, Bruce himself acknowledged that he’d be no match for Ali because of the difference of size to his disadvantage.
      There’s no way that Bruce could have been a threat for Tyson. Tyson would have crushed him.
      We mustn’t confuse Bruce Lee with the characters he has played in his movies.

      • from what i can gather, it was because of this fight and ending up badly winded, that Bruce started his own way of fighting and training and the difference to what he`d been doing till then was night and day…the Bruce Lee before and after this fight were totally different…if i`m wrong, somebody tell me why, in detail.

      • MysticNinjajay

        @Avenger

        You have to keep in mind that Bruce Lee saw the Wong Jack Man fight as an eye opener to the flaws of Wing Chun which inspired him to develop Jeet Kune Do. He improved his conditioning. He used more kicks. He studied different styles to identify all of the effective elements within them. And the Wong Jack Man fight was not the last fight of his life. You may recall that Bob Wall said Bruce fought an extra on the set of Enter the Dragon who challenged Bruce claiming he was just an actor. According to Wall Bruce destroyed him. Dan Inosanto says he saw Bruce get in to three fights in his life. There are several other eye witness testimonies to Bruce in real fights including against other Martial Artists.

        Since these fights weren’t recorded we can’t gauge his fighting prowess based on them and of course the witnesses are all Bruce Lee’s friends which means they could have easily embellished or fabricated the details. However for so many different fighters and Martial Artists to say that Bruce was a good fighter and skilled Martial Artist their testimonies lend credibility to the claim. We can also make our own observations. Bruce was clearly in great shape and clearly knew a variety of techniques. His dazzling choreography in his movies was only possible because he himself was a skilled Martial Artist with the ability to pull off those amazing moves. Clearly the movies exaggerate his abilities but there was some real skill displayed in them.

        Now as far as Bruce Lee vs. Mike Tyson is concerned don’t underestimate the usefulness of kicks in a fight. Kicks have more power than punches and more target options. Bruce could throw off Tyson’s Boxing by damaging his legs with kicks and seriously injure him with that side kick to the knee. He could hurt him to the body with kicks and stun him or knock him out with a kick to the head. A smaller man can beat a bigger man. As for grappling while it’s true that Tyson is much bigger than Bruce Lee was remember that with the right techniques a grappler can beat a much larger opponent. Royce Gracie took on fighters even bigger than Mike Tyson, even fighters with grappling backgrounds like Ken Shamrock and Dan Severn. Now I’m not saying Bruce Lee was equal to Royce Gracie as a grappler but he did train with Gene Lebell and incorporated 33 grappling moves in to Jeet Kune Do. You can see a sample of what Bruce would do in theory with ground fighting techniques in the fight scene with Kareem Abdul-Jabbar in The Game of Death.

        If Bruce Lee tried to trade punches with Tyson he would obviously get knocked out. When Bruce said that Muhammad Ali would kill him my understanding of that comment is that he was talking about in a Boxing match. That’s why he said to look at his little Chinese hand. He was acknowledging that he was too small to fight Ali in Boxing.

        If you don’t think Bruce stood a chance against Ali in a street fight just look at the match between Muhammad Ali and Antonio Inoki. The word is that when Ali’s camp saw Inoki training they were nervous about his grappling skills so they demanded extreme limitations on the techniques he could use in the ring. Among those restrictions was that Inoki must have one knee on the ground when he kicked. That’s why Inoki kept sliding to the ground when he kicked Ali and never tried to clinch with him or take him down. With no restrictions on technique, Bruce even being the smaller man could do all kinds of things to Tyson or Ali that they were not used to training to defend against.

        While he didn’t have nearly as much fight experience he had some and he was constantly training and perfecting his techniques. I believe James Demile when he says that Bruce could beat bigger men. Where I draw the line is when it comes to the claim that he could beat ANYONE regardless of background or size. I give him a chance against Boxers but I think he would lose against top Kickboxers and Mixed Martial Artists. But who really knows? Bruce was ahead of his time. Maybe he was as badass as his friends say he was and maybe it’s all a bunch of hype. The Bruce Lee fighting debate is a great example of the power of imagery. We’re all debating this because we have ingrained in our minds the amazing fight scenes from his movies. Some people want to believe the myth and some don’t. I think the truth lies in between. Bruce wasn’t a demi-God but he wasn’t a push over either.

      • @ Stuart
        Despite their huge difference of size at their advantage, DeMile and his fellows got beat him up by Bruce Lee. Bruce Lee admitted that he’d be killed by Ali in a fight. So if DeMile has told the truth, I don’t even dare imagining how Ali would have pulverized those self-proclaimed tough street fighters such as DeMile, Hart, Glover.
        DeMile has built his entire life around fighting? If that’s so, how could you explain that the subject of this interview you’ve posted is about his relationship with Bruce, and not DeMile’s fights?
        Because DeMile is renowned for his training with Bruce, not his fights!
        Besides, DeMile recognized that he had never competed in a tournament. So he had never made a living from fighting.
        Next time, please bring up some sensible arguments instead of relying on such feeble personal attacks.

        @ MysticNinjajay
        If I understand well, smaller men can take down bigger men easily? That probably why there are weight classes even in grappling, BJJ, wrestling and MMA. Otherwise, heavyweights would have overthrown by lightweights in combat.
        There are some grappling in Tao of Jeet Kune Do? Does that prove that Bruce could have used it in an actual bout?
        Besides, Ali didn’t look so helpless when he was confronted to the wrestler Kenny Jay :

        Ali was able to perform some nice takedowns and sweeps.
        I’ve found out an interview of Kenny Jay about his “bout” :
        http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Wrestling/2005/04/02/980462.html
        It was in fact an exhibition match, but according to Kenny Jay, nothing had been planned. Ali handled himself quite well.
        That was a good match.

        However, the fight with Inoki was a farce. Inoki inched his way across the floor on his behind nearly the entire time of the 15 rounds, flailing away with his boots at Ali’s left leg. How can you knock down a guy who is already down? Ali should have stomped him, even though Iit was probably forbidden.
        I heard it was an exhibition fight as well…well Inoki could at least make it entertaining even if he feared Ali’s punches.

        You still think that Bruce would have taken down Ali in a no-holds-barred fight? It would be Ali who would have easily taken him down and finished him off on the ground!!

        Bruce would have been obviously destroyed by Ali if he had been fool enough to fight with him.
        Besides, Bruce Lee was no fool. He would have never challenged terrific fighters such as Ali or Tyson.

      • i`m looking thru youtube just now for videos on DeMile`s seminars, teachings…came across this guy and well worth taking 5 minutes to listen to his first impressions when seeing Bruce Lee for the first time…

      • World Champion Bob Wall gives an absolutely fascinating account of working with Bruce and Chuck Norris on one particular movie…it was relatives of Wall`s wife who got them the use of the Colosseum in Rome for that fight, with a wee bit of money backhanding to the right officials…listen and learn when Bob describes Bruce and his abilities as a martial artist…then, again, according to the way some people think, he`s probably just saying it to confuse the masses…
        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S98ph2TJqYA

      • i just came across a comment from DeMille`s nephew at youtube re this demo DeMile was giving re the one inch punch…i`m going to try and get his nephew to come on here and give us some hard facts on his uncle, and Ed Hart`s background etc (would also be sensational if he`d ask his uncle to come on for a good verbal sparring session)…seems, to start with, DeMile was a navy heavyweight boxing champ before meeting Lee…so, when he shot out his very fast and powerful jab at Lee`s face, it was no wonder he was stunned when the wee man caught and had him in an arm lock before he could say Mammy!!!…lol

      • MysticNinjajay

        @Avenger

        That fight between Muhammad Ali and Kenny Jay was obviously a work. Ali is clearly pulling his punches and doing fake wrestling moves. Do you honestly believe Ali had the skill to suplex a wrestler in a real fight? With Boxing gloves on? It’s not real. I heard the Inoki fight was supposed to be a work as well but they decided to turn it in to a shoot fight albeit with major restrictions on the techniques Inoki could use.

        Now like I said before a smaller fighter could beat a bigger fighter and yes I do believe that Bruce Lee could use the grappling moves he learned training with Gene Lebell in a real fight. Why not? Now whether he could actually take Ali down and do something effective with his grappling is another story. We’ve never seen Bruce Lee in a real fight never mind using grappling so we don’t really know. But he shouldn’t be counted out just because he’s smaller. I believe Tyson and Ali could certainly knock out Bruce Lee in a no-holds-barred fight if they caught him with a good punch but Bruce Lee knew a lot of effective Martial Arts techniques that could give them problems.

    • @ Nebula One
      Bruce Lee wanted to beat Ali in boxing?
      Watch this clip again :

      Look again how he “punched” the bag. Bruce would have been smashed in a boxing fight against Ali.
      Lewis would have said that Lee used Wing Chun punches? Lewis was a great champion in karate and kickboxing. He was also proficient in wrestling and trained extensively in boxing, but he wasn’t an expert in Wing Chun such as Wong Shun Leung. Bruce’s way of punching was very different from the way of Wong Shun Leung, who had demonstrated WIng Chun punches. So Bruce didn’t use Wing Chun punches while working out on the heavy bag.

      @ MysticNinjajay
      Watch the clip I’ve posted in this comment. You’ll see Bruce practicing some kicks. See how skinny his legs have been. He would have hurt his own leg by kicking Ali’s legs.
      The WJM bout exposed Bruce’s flaws, not Wing Chun. It was Bruce who bruised his own fist by punching the back of the head of his opponent. Bruce was rather unexperienced to have made such a mistake, unlike James DeMile’s assertion.
      Let’s see Ali’s characteristics :
      Size : 6 feet and 3 inches
      Weight : 215lbs
      Reach : 78 inches
      Amateur records : 100 wins – 5 losses
      Pro records : 56 wins – 5 losses
      Three times world heavyweight champion in boxing.

      Let’s see Lee’s characteristics :
      Size : 5 feet and 7 inches
      Weight : 140lbs

      So Ali was heavier, taller and much more experienced than Bruce!
      He had certainly a greater reach than Bruce. so Bruce would have been vulnerable to Ali’s punches. Due to the overwhelming difference of size, if a punch of Ali connects with Bruce, he would be at best knock-out!
      Bruce trained in grappling? He wasn’t neither Royce Gracie, a grappling expert, nor Inoki, a pofessionnal wrestler. Bruce wouldn’t have a chance to take down Ali.
      Eventually, look at his side kicks. Do you believe that he could touch Ali with such a low speed?

      If Bruce Lee wouldn’t have a chance in a regular fight against Ali, how could you expect him to be victorious in a no-holds-barred fight?
      Ali would have crushed him in a boxing fight. Ali would have killed him in a no-holds-barred fight.

      • well…all those guys, some of them as big and some bigger than Ali, who built their entire life around fighting, training to fight, studying other fighters, etc., etc., and who knew, intimately, the awesome abilities of Bruce Lee, must, as DeMile said, know didly-didly compared a world-renowned expert like yourself…yes, indeed, it makes lots of sense to listen to your irrefutable words of wisdom compared to theirs…The Fighting Gospel according to Avenger…with all you know, why don`t ye write a book…it`s absolutely guarnteed to sell at least one copy… when your mum buys it…

      • MysticNinjajay

        @Avenger:

        Bruce Lee is wearing lose fitting pants in that video. He had very strong legs. With the right kicks you can hurt someone by kicking their legs regardless of size. I think you’re making too much of that training video. It’s just practice. I don’t need to remark on Bruce’s technique on the heavy bag to know that Muhammad Ali would beat him in a Boxing match. That’s just common sense. Boxing was Ali’s domain and he has a significant size advantage on Bruce. If the fight was under Boxing rules Ali would surely win.

        With no-holds-barred fighting there are many more variables to consider. A smaller man can beat a bigger man in a street fight and one should not underestimate Bruce’s skills as a Martial Artist. Kicks would matter in a fight with Ali. Grappling would matter as well. Bruce doesn’t have to be a world champion Jiu-Jitsu expert or Professional Wrestler to take Ali to the ground. He did know enough about grappling to use several effective techniques. Read Tao of Jeet Kune Do.

        Certainly Ali would be dangerous in a street fight. His size and reach would play a factor. His experience with full-contact fighting would matter.
        I have no doubt that he had the punching power to knock out Bruce Lee so if he connected with a good punch the fight would be over. But he would have to deal with the areas of combat that he was not familiar with in a fight with Bruce Lee. Inoki badly damaged Ali’s legs in their fight and the rules of their fights were designed to heavily restrict the techniques Inoki could use. Bruce was a smaller man so there are definite physical advantages that Ali had over him but he was a Martial Arts expert in excellent physical condition who was a genius when it came to fighting.

      • Avenger…I only have a few minutes, but I didn’t want to be rude and not respond to your questions. Let’s start with the backyard workout footage you have been let’s say… ‘concerned’ about.

        For starters, one should not gauge Bruce Lee’s actual skill set by that footage, neither pro or con. I say this because the pro Bruce Lee guys could justifiably claim that the speed in which Lee punches and kicks is not an accurate assessment of his true skill. He is moving much too slowly. Which would be a fact, because there is plenty of movie sequences shot at 32fps instead of 24 fps ‘just’ to capture the kicks and punches. And this, after he was asked to slow down, because they just weren’t getting a clear enough image at that frame-rate. The backyard stuff was videotaped circa mid 1960′s. Nobody knows exactly what Bruce’s intention was with those particular segments of videotape. Those workouts look very leisurely to me. Clearly, he is messing about with a new kicking shield that had been made for him. And of course, the heavybag footage. A clear indicator for us to not to take it seriously, is his lunging sidekicks on the new shield. The speed at which Lee is executing those, a blind man could see coming! I’ve had people complain to me about that particular segment of footage for many years now.
        My reply is invariably, “If Bruce Lee really believed that he could score on an opponent far enough away for him to have to lunge at those distances, then why does he always make sure his opponent is dazed or holding an airshield when he choreographs those kicks in his films?” Because he DOES know that an opponent at a distance and ready, would more than likely be able to evade the kick.
        Holding Bruce Lee to that footage as an indication of his true abilities, would be akin to holding the Beatles accountable for their studio outtakes. And some of that is REALLY awful! It’s just not an accurate representation of the truth.
        We know that by the fact that they had written and performed some truly wonderful music (long before the age of digitally cutting and pasting capabilities), and by the billion plus records they had sold.
        With Bruce Lee, we know that because ‘much’ of his true abilities were captured on film. Either in his movies, or outtakes from programs such as Hong Kong’s ‘Enjoy Yourself Tonight’, where I had posted those incredibly fast kicks. On that program he displays his true speed and power as, Bruce Lee kicked and broke 5 one inch boards with his running sidekick, suspended from the top only. In my 41 years in the martial arts, I’ve NEVER seen another person be able to do that, and I have been around some true world class martial artists in my time! Can you image the speed and power one must generate to pull that off?!

        Now, the answer to your next question partially involves the training footage previously discussed, which is ‘How could Bruce Lee possibly defeat much bigger fighters such as Ali and Tyson?”
        There are several reasons why many of us would pick Bruce Lee to win.
        However, we must first answer the question: “Which Bruce Lee would we have Ali & Tyson fight?
        Bruce Lee from 1959, 1960, 1961, 1962, 1963, 1964, 1965, 1966, 1967, 1968 etc. etc. You must know that Lee learned VERY quickly. So Bruce Lee from 1960, could have beaten the Bruce Lee from 1959 and so on and so on. This is especially relevant ‘post’ the Wong fight as he really made some dramatic changes to his training going forward. The guy absorbed infomation like a sponge, and always tested the techniques for street-worthiness.

        The second question we must answer is “Would Lee be using boxing against these men, or would it be all out/anything goes?” My answer to that is, if Bruce Lee had to use boxing to fight either of these men at ANY stage of his life, I’d figure Lee to lose. If Bruce Lee was fighting anything goes? I’d pick Bruce Lee from 1967 (and after) to beat both men, and put a year’s wages on it!

        Lastly, I want to say this with as much respect to you, and as little assumption on my part as possible: It’s fairly easy to tell those which have street and ring experience on these chat forums, simply by the things they say. You seem to me, to be very ignorant as to what a real ‘no holds barred anything goes’ fight is? It is precisely what James DeMile (regardless of what you think of him personally) described in the video that was posted here. It doesn’t matter if you are 135 pounds or 335 pounds. A streetfight is between two people with no rules and referees. The one left standing (or living in some cases) is the winner. Bruce Lee not only knew that, he advocated using the most brutal, effective weapons one human being can use on another. The idea of a streetfight is to survive, not receive a trophy or prize money for one’s efforts.

        Now, let’s use an example of small beating large in an area that you might be familiar with, and that’s the UFC. In it’s infancy, the Gracies were beating EVERYBODY!!! Royce Gracie at times, fought men nearly twice his size, and annihilated them. And none of the Gracies can strike to save heir soul! Bruce Lee on the other hand was a world class striker. He really didn’t need to learn a heck of a lot of grappling, because it’s relatively easy to beat a grappler when you don’t play their game. Many years ago, I had a couple of students bring friends over who were training at a Gracie affiliated school that were extremely good grapplers. They were asking my opinion on grappling, and I said grappling is an absolute necessity if one is to be a well rounded fighter. I also said, one doesn’t have to be an expert at it though. They were puzzled and asked me to explain, and I told them I wouldn’t play their game, and showed them what I meant. I would let them shoot on me and take me to the ground, and then I would do things like graze an eyeball with a finger, bite, fish hook, or pull their hair etc. etc. Not enough to really hurt them of course, but a bit of reality to experience. They were very upset with me because they felt I was being indignant, and they wanted me to…well, grapple! I explained to them that if I were in a street confrontation, I would only be concerned with methods that would defeat them in the fastest most efficient way. And that is to do all of the above! Which is precisely why those moves are illegal in MMA today.

        But back to Bruce Lee…it would be very easy for Lee to shoot on Ali & Tyson and bring them to the ground. And once he got them there, I doubt he would even bother trying to choke them out or submit. Knowing what I do about the man, he would probably tear them to shreds with his hands. On the other hand, if you want to know what leg kicks will do to a world class boxer like Ali, just read this article.
        http://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2009/nov/11/the-forgotten-story-of-ali-inoki

        Inoki messed Ali up so badly with leg kicks (which were not very powerful, I saw the fight), Ali spent two weeks in the hospital to recuperate when he arrived back in the USA, and THAT fight was a joke!
        Can you imaging how Ali would fare against Bruce Lee who would NOT be restricted by rules, and out to really get him? I shiver at the very thought!!!

      • After watching the below encounter between Ali and the big Japanese wrestler, it leaves you in no doubt most boxers would be destroyed if they fought for real…one of Ali`s previous boxing opponents, 6ft 6inch Chuck Wepner, also took on a wrestler and got absolutely demolished (watch it at youtube)…boxing is just too limited against highly trained guys who will go after any part of your body, especially the legs, and once taken down, with all the moves they know, a boxer will be finished…even the leg take-down kicks this guy halfheartedly tries on Ali, would take down a stand-up fighter, then he`d be at the mercy of the wrestler again…I was frightened for Ali when watching this…

        there`s also the other video at youtube, showing Ali jumping into the ring to challenge the massive wrestler, who then catches Ali`s jabs in his massive hand and finally grabs Ali overhead, spins him around, dumps him on the canvas and doesn`t even get out of breath doing it…well worth checking out…Joe Lewis, the martial arts guy, may have been correct when he said wrestlers may be the hardest guys of any fighting style…

      • Avenger, one other thing…I am a huge Ali fan like millions of others. The difference between you and me is, I am fully aware of a boxer’s limitations, and how to exploit them. If the fact that Inoki got Ali to the ground on more than one occasion, and virtually squatted on his face, or Joe Lewis dumping Ali on his back TWICE in a matter of moments doesn’t convince you that a fighter with the skill to attack and defend the entire body will pose tremendous problems for boxers, then there is no reasoning with you logically. You are lost in a world of make believe.

      • @ MysticNinjajay

        You’re right. Bruce Lee was the king in training, the best fighter in his garden. We haven’t any footages of his fights, only training and demos.
        Sure, Bruce’s choregraphed fights might have helped him a lot to be ready for a no-holds-barred fight.
        What about his resistance, his ability to endure punishment?
        Ali proved to the world his outstanding toughness by enduring the blows of terrific strikers such as Frazier of Foreman during multiple rounds.
        You think a kick of Bruce could have hurt him? No dude, he was too skinny for it. As soon as he would have hit Ali’s leg, that he would have hurt his own leg!
        Eventually, how could you expect Bruce to grapple Ali? Have you forgotten that Ali has an incredible ability to gauge the distance? See how he avoids blows in this clip :

        As soon as Bruce woud try to make a move, Ali would see through it, and intercept his attack with a good punch. Bruce would bit the dust, no doubt.

        @ Nebula one

        Feel free to answer whenever you like, no need to apology.
        I remember you’ve said that Bruce Lee was serious in his training. Now you’re telling me he messed up because he didn’t take that seriously?
        That seems odd, considering the fact that Bruce Lee was very careful about the way people may look at him. He had a temper, and didn’t like to make an arse of himself when it came to martial arts.
        About the video you may be talking about, I’ve found the original :

        This video has been sped up. That’s why Bruce looks incredibly fast.

        First, Breaking one inch boards doesn’t make you a fighter. Then, there are plenty of karate masters who broke boards.
        Watch how Hiroo Mochizuki, a japanese karate master, and some of his students have made it in the 60′s :
        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3CqRiwg1Tw (watch from 08:10)

        James DeMile, a self-proclaimed 225lbs street fighter was helpless against Bruce whereas a Kung Fu Cat like Wong Jack Man, who was far away of being an experienced street fighter and was a shrimp compared to DeMile, managed to last three minutes against Lee (though others say that the fight lasted 20-25 minutes and ended in a draw)!!
        If DeMile has told the truth about Bruce being able to beat him nearly instantly, then DeMile is a wimp. Or he has lied about his status as a merciless street fighter.
        Are you aware about the fact that those “warriors” such as Ed Hart, DeMile and Glover who have fought in ruthless and merciless street fights have lead quite a long life? Nothing disturbs you?
        Those tough men were even helpless against a shrimp like Bruce! Ali and Tyson would have knocked all of them out in a blink of an eye!
        Dude, you seem to forget that boxers love fighting. They were involved in street fights before being boxers.

        Come on, stop trying to cloud the issue! Bruce had neither the grappling skills of Royce Gracie nor the wrestling skills of Inoki. Both of them would have destroyed him!
        Even The Gracie found their match with Sakuraba!
        Even Bruce Lee admitted that he’d be killed by Ali due to the difference of size in his disadvantage!
        About your scenario in how to beat grappler, I remember that Gerard Gordeau tried this against Royce Gracie. He even bitted Royce when he had been taken down. That was a successful strategy :
        http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMjEwMDYzOTE2.html

        Watch the movies of Bruce Lee if you love it, trust DeMile’s delusions on Bruce Lee if you like, but stop making up stories in which Bruce would have beated Ali whereas he’d stated the opposite.

      • MysticNinjajay

        @Avenger

        I’m sure that Muhammad Ali had more experience than Bruce Lee at taking damage from his many Boxing matches however what he didn’t have experience with was defending against the attacks of a well-trained Martial Artist. Bruce Lee knew how to punch, kick, elbow, knee, trap, use joint locks and submission grappling. He didn’t have to be on Royce Gracie’s level to take Ali to the ground. Remember that Ali didn’t train in grappling at all. A smaller man can take a bigger man to the ground especially if he’s not used to defending against takedowns.

        Despite Ali’s quick footwork Inoki was able to land damaging kicks to his legs. Imagine what Bruce Lee could do in a no-holds-barred fight without rules restrictions. I reject your notion that Bruce would do more damage to himself kicking Ali. His kicks were very powerful. Bruce Lee was not skinny. He had an athletic physique. His strength was at or near the 100th percentile for a man his size. Do you think that Floyd Mayweather would hurt his hands if he punched a 220 pound man? Bruce knew how to kick and with the right kicks he could hurt Ali.

        Bob Wall stated that during their fight scenes some of the strikes Bruce landed on him were full force and absolutely real. They did this to have realism in their fight scenes. He says that they hurt him.

        The side kick that Bruce landed on him at the end of their fight scene in Enter the Dragon was full force. It knocked Wall down and broke the arm of one of the extras behind him. Bruce was incredibly strong for his size. He could do damage to anyone. I’m not saying for certain that Bruce would beat Ali or Tyson. Those are world class Boxers and in their prime they could give anyone a good fight including world class Martial Artists (Tyson especially was a ruthless street fighter. Look at the damage he did to Mitch Green in a street fight. Word is he also knocked out Wesley Snipes). But there are certainly ways in which Bruce could theoretically win the fight.

      • @ MysticNinjajay

        As far as I remember, you’ve claimed that Bruce Lee trained in grappling with Gene Lebell.
        I’ve just found out a fight Gene Lebell has had with a boxer called Milo Savage in December 1963 :

        You can see some extracts of this fight from 03:52.

        See how Lebell had troubles in taking down Savage, who was a middleweight boxer, despite the difference of size in his favor!
        Here’s a brief account of the bout on the official of Gene Lebell :
        http://genelebell.com/stories.html

        If Lebell had troubles against a middleweight boxer, how could you expect Bruce Lee, who trained under Lebell’s guidance in grappling, to be able to take down Ali, who was an outstanding heavyweight boxing champion, so easily?
        Besides, Bruce Lee weighed nearly 75lbs less than Ali!
        Moreover, the exhibition match between Ali and Kenny Jay showed clearly that Ali was able to perform some sweeps, take downs (like the one at 02:18).

        You think it’s has been staged, though Kenny Jay has told otherwise. I guess you’ve some some concrete piece of evidence to support your view…
        Anyway, one thing is clear : It definetely needs a very experienced and active wrestler to take Ali down and pin him. Bruce wasn’t neither an experienced nor an active wrestler.
        It’s very unlikely (to not tell IMPOSSIBLE) that Bruce Lee would be able to take down Ali. I’d say the opposite would be much more likely to happen!

        Concerning Bruce Lee’s kicks, the footage I’ve provided you clearly shows that Bruce needed a great momentum to perform a decent side kick (though he made barely move the man who held the air shield). It seems he had some troubles to perform powerful kicks, so it’d very unlikely he could hit Ali with that.

        So Bruce Lee wouldn’t have a chance against Ali in a no-holds-barred fight.

      • Re the kicking power of Bruce – below is a comment from Gene when Bruce kicked him hard, but obviously not as hard as he could…remember, Gene was a massively strong and a big, big man (just like DeMile and Ed Hart etc., etc…here`s wee 135lb Bruce kicking him…should be like a fly kicking an eliphant according to how you rate the striking power of Bruce…Gene must be lying in his teeth, just like most other world champs of the day who`d experienced what Lee could do…

        “Bruce loved to learn grappling, he ate it up! He said that people would never go for it in movies or TV because the fights are over too fast and most of the good stuff was hidden from view. He said they wanted to see. fancy kicking, acrobatics, and weapons — he was a savvy showman who knew how to give ‘em exactly what they wanted. I wish he could be around now to see how well grappling is doing these days. I remember one time he kicked me really hard. I remember thinking it was a good thing he only wore a size 6 shoe instead of a 14 like me, otherwise that kick would have sent me to China! He was strong for his size, lemme tell ya.

      • @ Stuart

        What can I tell you? If you suspect Gene Lebell of telling lies, then watch this video where you can see Bruce Lee performing some kicks:

        What you can see can’t lie.

      • MysticNinjajay

        @Avenger

        Gene Lebell put Milo Savage on the ground with several throws and choked him out. He admitted to some difficulty with throwing him and attributed it to Savage learning some Judo. I didn’t say it would be easy for Bruce Lee to take down Muhammad Ali but it would not be impossible.

        Now as for the Muhammad Ali vs. Kenny Jay fight my evidence that it was staged is the video itself. You can tell that Ali is pulling his punches and pulling off moves that are not ordinary for a real fight. Professional Wrestlers give each other cues in the ring for when to execute certain moves and they assist each other in pulling them off. Jay says the fight wasn’t rehearsed but that doesn’t mean it wasn’t staged with fake attacks and a predetermined outcome (Ali by KO) like any other wrestling match.

        You say that there’s no question that Ali would win in a no-holds-barred fight. But you have no real counter to the fact that Bruce Lee was a skilled Martial Artist who did have the ability to hurt and defeat larger men. A Boxer has an advantage over a Martial Artist in that they have more experience with full-contact fighting but the Martial Artist has the advantage in the variety of techniques that they know. Mixed Martial Artists are different because they have full-contact fighting experience and knowledge of a variety of techniques. I have no doubt that fighters like Anderson Silva or Georges St. Pierre would beat Bruce Lee.

      • mystuc ninja jay is nothing compared to me im bruce lees nephew son of his sister phobe lee im the greatest martial artist right now in the whole world

      • @ MysticNinjajay

        Gene Lebell was 9 years younger than Savage. He was an heavyweight judo champion amateur while Savage was an average middleweight boxer, much more lighter than Gene.
        Take a look at the boxing record of Milo Savage :
        http://boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=10919&cat=boxer
        49 wins for 46 losses. Not really in the top five like Gene had described it in an interview.
        The fight occured in December 1963, when Milo savage had retired from boxing competition.

        At least Gene Lebell applied his judo’s techniques in a bout. Can you say the same for Bruce Lee? The fight with WJM showed he couldn’t apply effectively his Wing Chun techniques, though he studied this martial art for a long time!
        How could you expect him to apply effectively the grappling techniques that Lebell taught him against Ali, who was one of the greatest heavyweight boxing champion?

        Come back to reality dude. Ali was younger, taller, much heavier (75lbs), much more experienced in fights than Bruce Lee!
        Ali had a better reach than Bruce Lee.
        He was much more resistant than Bruce Lee. He had a better stamina and better reflexes. He had an outstanding ability to gauge the distance, that exceeded by far the one of Bruce Lee. He had a much greater sense of timing and rhythm than Bruce !
        Ali had a better footwork that gave him a better mobility than Bruce.

        You can say whatever you want about the exhibition fight between Ali and Kenny Jay, one thing is sure : the sweeps and take downs Ali has performed are real! it needs an experienced wrestler to take Ali down and pin him.
        By the way, can you tell me in which occasions Bruce has demonstrated his kicks and grappling techniques? He did that in his movies, in which the fight were choregraphed and scripted to make him the victor.
        In a grappling match, Bruce Lee would have bitten the dust against Ali!

        Martial arts and combat sports are ruled by the physic’s laws. There’s another field in which Ali has the edge over Bruce : speed!
        Don’t underestimate the lightning speed of Ali’s punches!
        In the May 5, 1969 Sports Illustrated, Ali’s jab was measured with an omegascope. Ali’s jab, it was found, could smash a balsa board 16.5 inches away in 19/100 of a second. It actually covered the distance in 4/100 of a second, which is the blink of an eye.
        Here’s the magazine where you can read it :
        http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/edb/reader.html?magID=SI&issueDate=19690505&mode=reader_vault

        Ali’s jab was even faster than the one of the legendary Sugar Ray Robinson who was considered pound for pound the best fighter of all times.

        Consider the formula of the kinetic Energy (Ec = 0,5 * m * v ²), and be aware about the fact that Ali’s punch would be devastating for Bruce due to the difference of weight and speed in favor of Ali.
        Don’t forget Ali knocked out Sonny Liston, an heavyweight boxing champion, with the anchor punch he threw to counter the left jab of Sonny :

        Sonny Liston had never been knocked out before this fight with Ali!

        Muhammad Ali exceeds Bruce Lee by far in all fields of fighting!
        Bruce proved to be unable to use effectively his WIng Chun’s techniques against WJM.
        There’s absolutely no doubt that Ali would have destroyed Bruce Lee in a no-holds-barred fight.

      • for me, this fight gives you an idea of what a fight between Gracie and Bruce Lee would have been like, even tho the guy beating Gracie here has only a fraction of the speed, power and know-how of Bruce…if Lee was here today in his prime and familiarized himself with today`s styles of grappling etc., as shown here, he would destroy Gracie, no question what so ever – and very quickly…

      • MysticNinjajay

        @Avenger

        I know how great Muhammad Ali was. I’m a fan of him as well. Your rant praising him to me was not necessary. He was an incredible athlete and a great Boxer. But he was a Boxer! There are limitations to his skill in a street fight. Bruce Lee greatly respected Ali. He patterned his movement off of Ali. There’s no doubt that Ali was stronger than Bruce and had a significant size advantage over him in addition to height and reach. I have no doubt that if he connected he could have knocked out Bruce. But we’re talking about Muhammad Ali vs. Bruce Lee in a street fight not a Boxing match.

        Have you ever seen Boxers go in to Kickboxing? I’ve seen Boxers get destroyed by leg kicks in a Kickboxing match. In a street fight with a Martial Artist they are at an even greater disadvantage because of the various techniques Martial Artists know that Boxers don’t know and don’t train to defend against. You keep talking about the Wong Jack Man fight and how Bruce supposedly didn’t use Wing Chun effectively. According to Bruce he beat Wong Jack Man in 3 minutes, caused him to flee in fear and pounded him until he verbally submitted. Bruce used his Martial Art successfully but he saw weaknesses in the style which is why he developed Jeet Kune Do. Wong Jack Man was not the last street fight or challenge match Bruce Lee ever had in his life. He had several more according to eye witness accounts and according to those accounts he destroyed his opponents very efficiently.

        Now without video of real fights we don’t really know how good Bruce Lee was and most of his street fights were against nobodies. Muhammad Ali is not a nobody and I have no doubt he could defend himself in a fight however Bruce Lee was a world class Martial Artist who studied different fighting styles including Boxing and knew how to beat other trained fighters.

        “The best fighter is not a Boxer, Karate or Judo man. The best fighter is someone who can adapt on any style. He kicks too good for a Boxer, throws too good for a Karate man, and punches too good for a Judo man.”

        - Bruce Lee

      • MysticNinjajay

        @Stuart

        If Bruce Lee were alive today in his prime and trained for MMA I certainly think he would pick up on things quickly and become a great Mixed Martial Artist. But if we took Bruce from the past and had him fight Royce Gracie or any of the top Mixed Martial Artists I think he would lose. Kazushi Sakuraba made Royler Gracie look helpless in that video because he had a good takedown defense and great grappling skills of his own. Bruce knew some grappling but it’s unlikely that he was on the level of Sakuraba or Gracie.

      • Stuart Leggat

        I said if Bruce was given some time to familiarize himself with today`s grappling styles (LeBelle said he loved learning grappling “ate it up”)…with the speed Lee learned at, it wouldn`t take him long to get to their level then beyond, just as he always did when taught from the best masters in various styles…with the truly awesome body strength of Lee combined with his striking speed. timing etc., i honestly feel it would be like watching someone in slow motion trying to fight someone at normal speed…whether on the ground or toe to toe, i would expect Lee to destroy either of these fighters…Gracie`s and his opponents head kicks were fast, but nothing compared to Lee`s and Gracie got caught out by kicks and punches that were delivered fast, but not blur fast…no way would he be able to handle strikes coming at him at the speed Bruce was known for…

  48. [Which is why Mike Tyson said he would not fight Bruce Lee, because Lee would have been willing to lay his life on the line (as he had done dozens of times in Hong Kong).]

    Oh yeah? He did, did he? That must be why he never took up Wong Jack Man’s challenge to a public fight, after he’d got beat by WJM in a private fight where he tried to kill WJM, then boasted that he’d whupped WJM’s arse. Now that just confirms it. You’re just another hopeless, starstruck fanboy.

    • Dreamhunter: “Oh yeah? He did, did he? That must be why he never took up Wong Jack Man’s challenge to a public fight, after he’d got beat by WJM in a private fight where he tried to kill WJM, then boasted that he’d whupped WJM’s arse. Now that just confirms it. You’re just another hopeless, starstruck fanboy.”

      I would be more than happy to debate this topic with you if you can provide solid evidence that Wong had in fact publicly challenged Bruce Lee. I’ve been looking for that newspaper, or at the very least, someone of reputation who had read of that challenge since the early 1970′s. To this date, no one has come forward with any evidence to support Wong’s claim of said public challenge. Why? Because it never happened.
      2). Bruce Lee had NEVER mentioned Wong’s name in any interview he had given in his entire life. He always referred to Wong as ‘some Kung Fu cat’. This could have been anybody.
      3). Bruce Lee was virtually unknown at the time of the challenge. Just another guy in the area teaching Kung Fu to a handful of students. Wong was the one with the reputation. If Lee really HAD made public denouncements of Wong, why would anyone take the word of some random unknown martial art teacher over an established martial art master? That doesn’t even make sense!
      And lastly, when has the winner of ANY fight said they want a rematch? It’s just a load of hogwash coming from Wong’s camp. All Wong would have had to do was ignore the story. It didn’t harm his student enrollment in any way that I’m aware of. Besides, do you have any idea as to how many martial artists claim to have beaten Lee in a fight? Dozens! Lee just shrugged it off as nonsense, as Wong should have done. You must remember, if something doesn’t make sense, then it is generally untrue. Believing Wong’s story as you do, must make you a hopeless fanboy of Wong?

  49. [World champion Jim Kelly said he never had a chance to spar with Bruce. What is amazing is that he sought Lee out for instruction just from the things that other world champion fighters were saying about him. Unfortunately, Lee had left for Hong Kong at the time. So, Lee must have done something on the set of Enter the Dragon to make Jim Kelly say “nobody could beat Bruce Lee. Not me, not nobody! The guy was absolutely incredible!”]

    Dude. If I was world champion, and I got invited to act in a Bruce Lee movie like Jim Kelly, where Bruce Lee was the hero and leading star, I would say exactly as Jim Kelly said. It would only hv been the proper thing to say. Good PR never did anyone any harm, dude. Even to a world champion.

    • man 0 man…your comment about Kelly saying this for pr reasons is THE most half-witted remark i`ve ever heard…Kelly said this in a youtube interview fairly recently when he had nothing to gain from it…it was a heartfelt remark and one that you obviously want to rubbish, no matter how ridiculous you sound and, believe me, you do sound ridiculous…

    • Dreamhunter: ” If I was world champion, and I got invited to act in a Bruce Lee movie like Jim Kelly, where Bruce Lee was the hero and leading star, I would say exactly as Jim Kelly said. It would only hv been the proper thing to say. Good PR never did anyone any harm, dude. Even to a world champion.

      Ok…let’s run with that then. Chuck Norris was in WOTD, and the only thing he says today is that “he and Lee sparred, and it was fun. That they didn’t want to ‘go there’.” Of course, he sang a different tune when Lee was alive.
      If Jim Kelly wasn’t truly impressed with Lee and wanted to keep good PR, all he would have to say is that he is grateful to Lee for the opportunity to be in ETD, or some such thing. There are many positive things Kelly could have said without espousing on about Lee’s combat skill. Kelly merely said how he felt.

      Stuart and I had provided many, many firsthand accounts of true world champion fighters that were blown away by Bruce Lee’s combat skill.
      Why is it that in all of these years, not one person of reputation has ever come forward to say that Bruce Lee was not really what he is made out to be?
      Considering the fact that Lee had performed for, and had met ‘literally’ thousands of martial artists, mathematically, someone should have come forward and made comments to Lee’s lack of combat skill, if in fact that was the case.

  50. MMAJunkie | October 14, 2013 at 5:15 pm | Reply When did Mike Tyson ever say that he wouldn’t fight BL? And even if he did, that doesn’t mean he’d be beaten.

    If Mike Tyson really ever said that, that he would not dare fight Bruce Lee, cos he’d get beat by Bruce Lee, then someone has the grounds to sue Mike Tyson for defamation. For defaming himself.

    Tell ya what, MMA Junkie. Bruce Lee could also beat the Rock, John Cena, Randy Orton, Hulk Hogan and the Undertaker combined.

    • i`m not sure if i`d like to have seen Bruce, in his prime, fight Tyson in his outside on the street…Tyson was also something incredibly special at his best…however, i would love to hear the detailed opinion of someone like heavyweight boxer/martial artist de Mile on who would win and why…

      what he has said – and anyone doubting Lee should watch this interview – is that himself at 225ibs and a PROVEN mean fighting machine as well as his stable mate “who was a 245ib boxer and could kill you with either hand, but, against Lee, we didn`t have a chance”

    • the 245lb pro boxer who could kill you with either hand, that James DeMile refers to in this video, is Ed Hart…watch this interview and fast forward to 35 seconds when DeMile refers to Ed and himself against 130lb Lee.

    • Dreamhunter: “MMAJunkie | October 14, 2013 at 5:15 pm | Reply When did Mike Tyson ever say that he wouldn’t fight BL? And even if he did, that doesn’t mean he’d be beaten. If Mike Tyson really ever said that, that he would not dare fight Bruce Lee, cos he’d get beat by Bruce Lee, then someone has the grounds to sue Mike Tyson for defamation. For defaming himself.”

      Do you see what I mean about you? Stuart and I have provided not only the quote, but a link to the interview with Tyson saying he would not fight Bruce Lee because he would fight to the death. Tyson is a realist and you are, as your user name implies, a dreamhunter.

      • Since you’re talking about reality, here’s why Bruce Lee would have never fought Mike Tyson.
        Actually, Bruce Lee has replied to Bolo Yeung concerning the question about the outcome of an hypotetical fight between him and Ali :”Look at my hand. It’s a little Chinese hand. He’d kill me”.
        Here’s the scanned page where I’ve read it :
        http://s31.photobucket.com/user/Cero666/media/scan0049.jpg.html
        Bruce knew he’d never be a match for Ali, and pointed out the difference of size to his disadvantage.
        Bruce is a realist. He would have never engaged neither Ali nor Tyson in a street fight.
        I trust Bruce’s words to wake up some of his fans from their daydreaming and get them back to reality.

    • Bruce Lee himself admitted that he’d be no match for Ali in a fight.
      http://s31.photobucket.com/user/Cero666/media/scan0049.jpg.html
      However, it seems that some dreamers here continue to question this fact.
      Tyson must have been paid for having made such an asinine assertion. Those dreamers should ask themselves how Bruce Lee got renowned. As a fighter or as a professional actor and movie producer?

  51. MMAJunkie | October 14, 2013 at 5:11 pm | Reply Jesus, Hitler, Bruce Lee. You can’t intelligently argue with their blind, faithful followers.

    You can say that again. And again. And again.

  52. Lewis explained the difference between a fighter and a martial artist.

  53. When did Mike Tyson ever say that he wouldn’t fight BL? And even if he did, that doesn’t mean he’d be beaten.

  54. Jesus, Hitler, Bruce Lee. You can’t intelligently argue with their blind, faithful followers.

    • MMAJUNKIE: “Jesus, Hitler, Bruce Lee. You can’t intelligently argue with their blind, faithful followers.”

      Not when you bring no facts and intelligence to the table…

  55. Everything is anecdotal with these BL fanboy lovers. it becomes a battle of anecdotes.There are so many articles that these ma people say contradictory stories of BL. And I never did say that BL couldn’t fight; he’s just not a fighter. I’m no journalist so I was never trying to engage in a battle with a blind follower, respond to demands. BL was a great martial artist but joe lewis said it best in one of those clips.

    • MMAJUNKIE: “There are so many articles that these ma people say contradictory stories of BL.”

      I agree completely! All I’m trying to get you to realize is that I don’t care how reputable a person is, if they were not there to witness the event, then it’s all hearsay. Never trust hearsay!

      A case in point…Joe Lewis had said in many interviews that BL NEVER sparred with him, Mike Stone, Chuck Norris or any other big name fighters of the day. Well, we know from myriad interviews Chuck Norris has given, that he and Lee sparred often. Lewis must have foolishly assumed no one would check to see if that information was correct.
      Of course, we all know now, Lewis was dead wrong. This is precisely what I am talking about. Lewis was never at a Lee/Norris workout, so how would he know what they did or did not do?

      Not only is Lewis wrong about Norris sparring with Lee, we KNOW that world champions Louis Delgado, Skipper Mullins, Ernest Lieb, Fred Wren, Pat Burleson, Aaron Banks, Jim Harrison, John Worley, Steve Sanders, Howard Jackson and Allen Steen had all said they went full contact with Lee in interviews, and were completely in awe of his skill.

      Why on earth would they discuss this in the top MA magazines of the day, when they COULD have never mentioned it at all? After all, the comments about Lee does nothing for their reputations, only Bruce Lee’s.
      Interestingly, Steen had beat both Joe Lewis and Chuck Norris on the SAME DAY for the world title. Steen had called Lee’s fighting skill ‘otherworldly’. One hell of a compliment coming from this man!
      Here’s another great compliment: “Although I had won 42 Karate tournaments, I do not consider myself a match for him.” – Ernest Lieb

      World champion Jim Kelly said he never had a chance to spar with Bruce. What is amazing is that he sought Lee out for instruction just from the things that other world champion fighters were saying about him. Unfortunately, Lee had left for Hong Kong at the time. So, Lee must have done something on the set of Enter the Dragon to make Jim Kelly say “nobody could beat Bruce Lee. Not me, not nobody! The guy was absolutely incredible!”
      Go to 5:00 into this interview. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGTRugkyCFs.

      Fortunately, there were many highly reputable martial artists that had trained with Bruce directly. THOSE are the anecdotes that fact finders search for. They were there, and had witnessed it firsthand. Regarding BL’s combat skill, there are far too many world champion professional ‘fighters’ who had sparred with BL full contact, and came away awestruck. One cannot just dismiss that information simply because we wish not to believe it. That would be ridiculous.

      MMAJUNKIE: “And I never did say that BL couldn’t fight; he’s just not a fighter.”

      And I’m saying that is an incorrect assessment of Bruce Lee. He was just not a ‘tournament’ fighter. Tournaments are NOT indicative of how a fighter will perform in a life or death scenario. Which is why Mike Tyson said he would not fight Bruce Lee, because Lee would have been willing to lay his life on the line (as he had done dozens of times in Hong Kong). and Tyson simply would not. Therein lies the difference between a sports fighter (concerned with preserving life) and a streetfighter.

      MMAJUNKIE: “I’m no journalist so I was never trying to engage in a battle with a blind follower, respond to demands.”

      What does being a journalist have to do with anything?!

      As far as being a blind follower? You have no idea as to the wealth of my knowledge and martial art/combat experience. Please don’t make yourself look even more foolish by presuming to know anything about me.
      You simply made a number of statements that you claim were based on fact, and I called you on it. You were dead wrong. I’ve dealt with many, many BS’rs in my lifetime. I ask guys like you to substantiate your claims, and not only do you come up with nothing, you get so miffed, that you resort to name calling which only makes you look even more foolish. If you don’t know the facts, then keep your mouth shut, or ask questions.

      MMAJUNKIE: “BL was a great martial artist but joe lewis said it best in one of those clips.”

      Joe Lewis based his ENTIRE BOOK on what Bruce Lee taught him.
      Going so far as to call the book ‘How To Master Bruce Lee’s Fighting System’ So Lewis must have been awfully grateful to Bruce Lee!
      In any case, you never clarified what Lewis said or what clip you are referring to. This has been typical of your posting history.
      You kids need to pull your heads out of your butts and learn to deal in reality before you open your mouths. If you do this, I promise you will save yourself from a lot of future embarrassment.

      • Stuart Leggat

        I was fascinated to read the wee bit about Steen’s assessment of Lee…is there anywhere I can read the entire interview?

        Cheers!

      • Hi Stuart, sadly, there is very little if anything (entire interviews) on the internet with many pro fighters who had made comments about Bruce Lee, aside from those short comments. As I’m sure you are aware, someone has to first HAVE the information, then transcribe it onto the internet before it becomes available to the masses. I had written Blackbelt magazine twice to see if they would/could find this information, and make it available on their website, I didn’t hear back the first time, and the second time they replied that the vast majority of the old magazines had been lost to the ravages of time, and were gone forever.

        After Lee’e passing, Rainbow Publications (essentially Blackbelt magazine) had done a series of books and magazines in tribute to Bruce Lee. I believe I have most of them if not all. Some of the information I post on chat sites comes from these books. I try to find it on the internet first, as it is the most easily verifiable. Even then, you can’t trust every website to have accurate information. Then you have the problem of the martial artists themselves getting it wrong, such as the Parker, Wall and Lewis examples in my last post.

        Allen Steen’s comments were taken from the Book ‘The Life & Legend of Bruce Lee’ by Rainbow Publications. It came out circa 1974/75. This is absolutely one of the best books ever done on Bruce Lee, simply because so many interviews (actually just the comments relating directly to Lee) from great martial art masters and pro fighters were included. It is a veritable ‘who’s who’ in the world of martial arts. Also, look for ‘Bruce Lee: The Incomparable Fighter’. That is excellent too!
        I have to chuckle a bit when I see certain individuals post the things they do regarding Bruce Lee, because their comments and rebuttals are purely based on emotion. And you can easily tell who the mental midgets are, because once you demand proof of said claim(s) they cannot back them up, get upset and start the name calling. They have no idea what else to do! It’s ALWAYS easy to out debate these guys.

        I strongly suggest going to ebay, and keep an eye open for vintage MA magazines from 1966 onward, as Lee became popular because of the Green Hornet. Everyone wanted to interview Lee after that show aired!

        Good luck my friend!

  56. Transcript of the Ed Parker interview:

    Ed Parker: Another individual that I helped get into the industry was a guy named Bruce Lee. …I got him a job as Kato on the Green Hornet series.” “He certainly made the industry famous, but I had forseen that. I realized that if he got on the screen after seeing his ability, it would make many of us very happy in terms of our business.

    Interviewer: Joe Lewis said that Bruce inspired people, that he was a tremendous inspiration to the average person, that they didn’t have to be…

    EP: It’s funny, I was back here once going to the Nationals and I brought Bruce here and introduced him the East Coast, introduced him to Jhoon Rhee. Bruce and I left to go back and he made a comment and said, you know I’m teaching Mike Stone, Chuck Norris and Joe Lewis. I said yeah, I know that. He said “out of the three, who would you tell me had the greatest amount of force and power?”. I said no doubt, Joe Lewis does. And he’s shocked, he said “how do you know?” I said I can read movements and I can read motion. Well am I right or am I wrong? He said oh yeah you’re right, when Joe would hit me and I was holding the bag, he would drive me back. And Joe’s a talented guy, a lot of talent…

    Guest: Mr. Parker, I can remember, in fact you were present at Madison Square Garden when Bruce was demonstrating power to a point. And he did his famous one in punch or what not.

    EP: It was a push. It’s a push, not a punch.

    Guest: Yeah, this person really started to improvise and…uh, I never saw him fight but I did see him move and he just moved so gracefully.

    EP: He moved very well, but he was not infallible. There’s a guy named Gene Lebell, twice national judo champion, you’ve seen him on television…he got Bruce one day on the set and really beat him bad, really bad…
    “World class martial artist” not a fighter. He has no record of fights. Then every street fighter should be called a fighter.

  57. It is also very clear that the writer is saying he was once an ignoramus like others until he actually did grow up. lol Nebula One kill yourself.

  58. Wow! Nebula One can’t read. Idiot. He can’t read sarcasm or make out points. There are interviews in which known martial artists explained that he was a great martial artist but not at all a fighter. Find them.

    • MMAJUNKIE: “Wow! Nebula One can’t read. Idiot. He can’t read sarcasm or make out points. There are interviews in which known martial artists explained that he was a great martial artist but not at all a fighter. Find them.”

      Wow MMAJUNKIE, don’t keep it bottled up inside, tell us how you really feel Lol!!!

      People bash Lee all the time on the internet. I find it funny how it always seems to be people who have no real world experiences as a fighter, little to no martial art training, people who had never actually researched Lee’s life, and people who had never met Bruce Lee, or any of the countless martial artists who have trained with him. Why on earth would anyone even consider their opinion, let alone take it as the gospel truth? That would be completely idiotic!

      Junk: “It is also very clear that the writer is saying he was once an ignoramus like others until he actually did grow up. lol Nebula One kill yourself.”

      He was an ignoramus for being immature and naive in placing a mere mortal on the pedestal of being a god or godlike. Had he approached Bruce Lee from a mature and logical perspective, and did his homework on just why Lee was/is considered such a great fighter, he would have come away with much of what he expected in the beginning.

      El Alvir’s last statement was “To people who did see “whatever it is they saw” in regards to Bruce Lee and continue to hold their opinions high and refuse to let go of memories that are gradually perpetuating myths, I question them too: “Could you be at all wrong? At all?”

      The answer to the question is NO! Those who witnessed Lee firsthand merely reflected on those experiences. If 100 or so of the greatest masters and professional fighters to ever walk the earth tell eerily similar stories of Lee’s skill as a fighter, and many of them never having met one another, then what they had witnessed was in fact real. It would be completely illogical to assume otherwise. After all, these guys were not just average Joe martial artists down the block. Many of them were the best of the best in their respective fields. And yet you expect me to place value in as you say “known martial artists explained that he was a great martial artist but not at all a fighter”?

      Okay…I’ve included a number of links to support my position. I expect you to do the same. I’ll tell you what, post just one interview (video or written) in which a known/established martial artist who had actually fought or sparred Bruce Lee and said ‘he was a great martial artist, but not at all a fighter’, and I will not only openly concede to you that fact, but I will never mention the words Bruce Lee and fighter in the same sentence again here or anywhere….

      • Gene Labell Kareem A.Jabbar. Ted Wong actually said Bruce was good at sparring but outright reduced Bruce Lee’s pedigree as a fighter to me and others who actually knew Wong. Chuck Norris is being diplomatic now but hinted that Lee was nowhere near his level. “We sparred and it was actually fun but Lee didn’t really fight me because he didn’t compete..” Bob Wall said in an interview about enter the dragon, Bruce was a master AT WHAT HE DID. This is what people often say about Bruce Lee insinuating that he was not a fighter. Still we are missing the point that this all is like heroworship. The writer addresses it in ad hominem descriptions. MMA fighters would demolish Lee. And it was Dan Inosanto who mentioned that he was actually better at the nunchucks too.There is doc that the Inosanto talks about how Lee was messing up the nunchucks in the movie but I forgot what it was.

      • MMAJUNKIE…with all due respect, you’ve made some errors.

        In the first place, I asked you to provide link of a written interview or video with someone who had fought or sparred Bruce Lee, who had said Lee was a great martial artist, but not a fighter.
        You had only provided me with excerpts from interviews, and nowhere did anyone say Lee couldn’t fight. You must provide a link to the entire interview. So we can see that it is from a legit site. Anything can be written, cut & pasted.

        Second, you had listed:
        Ed Parker as someone who either fought or sparred Bruce Lee. I have several hundred martial art magazines from all over the world, starting mid 1960′s through current. I have never read anywhere (or had seen a video interview) in my 54 years of life on this planet where Ed Parker discusses fighting Lee in any way shape or form.
        With that being said, Parker would have no firsthand knowledge of Lee’s skill as a fighter. If you have a source interview of Parker where he says he had fought/sparred Lee, please post the link.

        Gene LeBell – Bruce had taken grappling lessons from LeBell and Lee taught LeBell some Gung Fu. That was it, end of story. The two never fought ever.
        The story that Ed Parker (not present on the GH set) told, was an anecdote passed on by Bob Wall (who also wasn’t on the set). That makes both men’s version of the account ‘hearsay’, and we don’t accept hearsay.
        We must only acknowledge information from people who were present at said event to place any value in it.
        I had previously posted an interview with Van Williams (who played the Green Hornet) and he says that LeBell walked up behind Bruce while Lee, Williams and the show’s director were discussing the day’s shooting.
        Here is the story directly from LeBell’s personal website:
        http://genelebell.com/stories.html.

        LeBell’s account is strikingly similar to Van William’s recollection. The only discrepancy between the two stories is ‘how’ LeBell was able to grab Lee to pick him up. Most people tend to believe Williams account as it makes much more sense logically. Williams had said on many an occasion “You just don’t pick up Bruce Lee and put him on your shoulders if he didn’t want you to.”
        Now, both Parker and Wall claim that LeBell beat Lee pretty bad. Does LeBell’s account sound like Lee got his ass kicked? Certainly not!
        In any case, LeBell had a lot to gain from embellishing the story in his favor, whereas Williams had nothing to gain no matter which way the story went. Again, what makes the most sense, is most likely the truth.

        Ted Wong –
        Interviewer – WHAT WAS IT LIKE SPARRING BRUCE LEE?

        Ted Wong: “He was so quick and he could judge distance so good. Even if he was standing real close to you, YOU STILL COULDN’T TOUCH HIM AT ALL!. I learned a lot from just sparring with him. You had to give one hundred percent and you had to learn to move quick every time you sparred him.”
        Here is the link to the interview: http://www.thejkdbrotherhood.com/JKD-Brotherhood/JKD-Brotherhood/JKD-Brotherhood/ted-wong-jeet-kune-do.html

        Avenger: “Wong actually said Bruce was good at sparring but outright reduced Bruce Lee’s pedigree as a fighter to me and others who actually knew Wong.”

        You are full of proverbial s**t!!!
        Wong never said such a thing to anyone EVER! He was absolutely astounded by Lee’s combat skill.

        Kareem A. Jabaar – Watch the documentary ‘A Warrior’s Journey’ for Jabaar’s opinion on Lee as a fighter.

        Chuck Norris – He’s part of the ‘code of silence’ that world champion fighter Jim Kelly had talked about in the interview I had posted. While Lee was alive, Norris sang a completely different tune, I have the magazines from that time period to prove it. Chuck is not stupid. Much better for his image to say the things he does today. Funny how other world champs who had beat Norris & Lewis in competition were in complete awe of Lee’s combat skill…

        Bob Wall –
        Avenger: “Bob Wall said in an interview about enter the dragon, Bruce was a master AT WHAT HE DID. This is what people often say about Bruce Lee insinuating that he was not a fighter.”

        Here is what Bob Wall REALLY said about Bruce Lee as a fighter –
        Wall: “But I just admired the hell out of him. He was a little man that created a big man’s body and he trained fanatically, he was into reality, he always believed in full contact, he had a lot of what was in already, among our group. I saw Bruce beat up a couple of people. There weren’t a lot of challenges. There’s a lot of people who ‘talk’ like Steven Seagal… The main incident was a guy on the wall speaking in cantonese who was basically saying ‘you’re not a martial artist, you’re just an actor” and Bruce said “oh really. Come on down and show me what you got” and the guy goes down there and Bruce was just playing around with him and the guy was trying to take his head off and Bruce realized, I know bruce real well, I saw his whole face change cause this guy was really trying to hurt him and Bruce just then kicks the **** out of him, rammed him to the wall, arm-locked him, smacked him 3 or 4 times on the face, and the guy just started going ‘I quit, I quit, I quit’ Bruce smacked him a few more times. The guy couldn’t move at all. And then Bruce told him ‘Not bad for an actor’. And the guy then bowed to him.

        That’s the difference between Seagal and Bruce. Seagal would’ve fired him, but Bruce just let him fly back on the wall. But he let him know on no uncertain terms that they were totally mismatched. You see Bruce was a world class martial artist and there are a lot of Black Belts walking around thinking there’s no difference between a world class and a black belt. But there is a big difference. Bruce was the real deal!”
        http://www.cityonfire.com/feature-bob-wall-interview/

        Here is an interview with Wall in Blackbelt Magazine -
        Interviewer: “A famous fighter has stated that in a tournament or full-contact event, Bruce Lee wouldn’t have fared well. What are your thoughts on that?

        Wall: “Bruce was a great fighter and would have always done well.”
        http://www.blackbeltmag.com/daily/martial-arts-entertainment/bruce-lee-movies/bob-wall-co-star-of-three-bruce-lee-movies-dishes-on-bruce-lee-steven-seagal-and-chuck-norris-part-2/

        Avenger: “World class martial artist” not a fighter. He (Lee) has no record of fights. Then every street fighter should be called a fighter.

        To clarify the term, all you have to do is put the word ‘professional’ in front of fighter to differentiate the two meanings of the word. Bruce Lee was a ‘street’ fighter. Norris, Wall, Lewis and Stone were not. In fact, Lewis says he was never in a streetfight in his entire life. How can one possibly know how they would react in a life threatening situation, when one has never had their life threatened? This is why so little regard is held for tournament players from real world martial artists. It’s like asking a soldier who has seen combat to hold paintball champions in high regard. One has a high risk of loss of life (streetfighter) and the other has nearly zero risk (tournament fighter).

        James DeMile said it best – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Yf-Cpvvucs

        DeMile is absolutely spot on here!

  59. To Nebula One
    Thanks for your clear version of the demo with Bruce Lee and Vic Moore. In my link, Moore claimed that the agreement was to score in the chest. Take a look at the block of Moore. The block itself looks to be aimed to top chest area, and not the face, while Bruce aimed Moore’s face. It seems that Moore is correct on this point.
    So Bruce would have delivered an unexpected attack to catch Moore off-guard but he has still missed the target, employed a bad timing to attack and came to Moore’s reach with his guard down and unable to deliver another attack.

    To you, Bruce Lee used Wing Chun punches when he punched the heavy bag and we couldn’t judge his abilities in boxing just by watching it.
    Let’s compare Lee’s punches with the ones demonstrated by Wong Shun Leung, who trained Bruce in Wing Chun :

    Wong Shun Leung’s punches looks very different compared to Bruce’s punches. Are you really sure that Bruce Lee used WIng Chun punches while punching the bag?

    Tyson stated in the article who have provided to us that Bruce Lee would be ready to fight to the death. So he implied that Bruce would be ready to kill his opponent! It’s insane! Bruce was an actor and a martial artist, not an assassin! Tyson told bullshit there.
    We’re not talking about the average large man, we’re talking about Tyson. You know, one of the most dangerous heavyweight boxing champion that has ever lived. This fighter was so fast, explosive and powerful that he destroyed litterraly others heavyweight boxers very quickly (for example he knocked out Michael Spinks on the 27th June 1988 in 1mn 31s!)! I don’t even dare imagining what it would be if Bruce Lee took one of Tyson’s blows.
    Take a look at the shadow boxing session of Tyson :

    His punches are far quicker than Bruce’s kicks :

    Do you really think that Bruce Lee, who weighed 135lbs, could have been a match for this outstanding boxing heavyweight champion? Wake up.

    • Tyson at his best took on guys much bigger and some much heavier than himself, but thru his speed, power etc., he demolished many…are you saying only he could beat much bigger and heavier guys and not Bruce? Also, watch Tyson in the dressing room of that big champion mma fighter when he was sitting on the floor and what the mma guy says about how he`d beat Tyson as he wouldn`t be restricted by boxing`s rules…looking at Tyson, he gave me the impression he was in awe of this fighter and many genuine experts in this field of fighting say Bruce would beat anyone in mma, but somehow couldn’t`t live with Tyson?

      Joe Lewis, the martial arts guy who Bruce taught, could have easily demolished Ali when they met in the ring as Ali was training to fight the wrestler…Joe fainted, made Ali respond to the anticipated blow, then Joe grabbed him and took him down, no problem, but did not want to embarrass his hero, Ali, by taking it any further, yet many experts say heavyweight Joe could not live with Bruce, just like Stone, Norris etc., etc…

      • Tyson BEAT larger and heavier fighters than him :
        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NP0oAbiIeMs
        This fight between Sammy Scaff (250lbs) and Tyson (215lbs) took place on the 06th December 1985.
        Did Bruce fight bigger and heavier opponents than him?
        How many of those genuines experts in MMA that considers that Bruce Lee would defeat everybody has seen him fighting for real?

        Joe Lewis would have fainted a blow and grabbed Ali? Tyson BEAT larger and heavier fighters than him :
        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NP0oAbiIeMs
        This fight between Sammy Scaff (250lbs) and Tyson (215lbs) took place on the 06th December 1985.
        Did Bruce fight bigger and heavier opponents than him?
        How many of those genuines experts in MMA that considers that Bruce Lee would defeat everybody has seen him fight for real?

        If I understand well, Joe Lewis would have feinted a blow and grabbed Ali?
        Let’s watch how Ali’s avoid blows :

        This great fighter has really an outstanding ability to gaudge the distance, to let his guard down and allow his opponent to punch him to the face. However, he avoids skillfully the punches (like we can see it from 02:13 to 02:16).
        I really doubt that Lewis could have approached him just by fainting an attack. Where have you read it? Are there some pictures or footages of this encounter?

      • Below is an account of it that I found being discussed elsewhere…

        9 2008 at 6:08 PM Leon (Login leon83)

        Response to Thanks Leon. What is your source mate?

        Joe Lewis claims that, in the run up to this contest Ali vs Inoke on 25 June 1976 in Tokyo, he visited one of Ali’s training sessions and challenged him, claming that a boxer is is vulnerable to an attack at ground level by a skilled martial artist.
        After a lot of messing around and faking, accompanied by irritating questions from the spectators, Ali finally backed off and invited Lewis to go for it.
        Lewis faked an explosive jab at Ali’s head and then dropped for his legs, using a fireman’s takedown to slap Ali down hard and fast on the canvas.
        Ali was flat on his back with Lewis on top of him but reached out and grabbed the bottom rope of the boxing ring, saying that boxing rules state that when a boxer touches the bottom rope, his opponent must stand back and let him up.
        Lewis says the Ali camp suppressed all photos of this incident.
        He adds, Ali showed me just how slick he was.

        source : Bruce Lee Fighting Spirit- new edition from Bruce Thomas 2002

      • Here’s the account of it from Joe Lewis:

        “Muhammad Ali was getting ready to fight the wrestler, Inoki, from Japan. He was at the Olympic Auditorium in Los Angeles doing a press conference in the boxing ring. I simply asked him what he would do if a wrestler did a fake punch at his head and shot for his leg to take him to the ground. He told me to step in the ring and demonstrate. The press pushed me between the ropes, and I found myself face to face with Ali. We were both in street clothes, and he had his hands up shuffling side to side using lateral footwork movements against me. I did a shoulder fake, which he reacted to, and shot for his leg. The instance I hooked his leg, I froze. I was too embarrassed to dump him on his butt. He bent forward and wrapped his arms around my waist, and I heard everybody in the place laugh. I picked him up, did a fireman’s carry takedown, dumping him on his back, and pinned him on the mat. Everybody grabbed me and pulled me off quickly. I jumped up, telling everybody we were just playing. Ali stood up next to me and put his arm around my shoulder. At the time, I was only about 180 pounds because I was pursuing acting not fighting, and my weight was really down. Ali’s first comment to me was, “You lifted weights when you were younger, didn’t you?” I’m sure he could tell I was extremely strong and hard as a brick. Then we did the same movement again, and I pinned him again a second time in a row. That’s when he showed me how he was going to fight Inoki with his back constantly against the ropes.”

      • Sorry, I’ve messed up my previous comment.

        Tyson beat larger and heavier fighters than him :

        This fight between Sammy Scaff (250lbs) and Tyson (215lbs) took place on the 06th December 1985.
        Did Bruce fight bigger and heavier opponents than him?
        How many of those genuines experts in MMA that considers that Bruce Lee would defeat everybody has seen him fighting for real?

        If I understand well, Joe Lewis would have feinted a blow and grabbed Ali?
        Let’s watch how Ali’s avoids blows :

        This great fighter has really an outstanding ability to gaudge the distance, to let his guard down and allow his opponent to punch him to the face. However, he avoids skillfully the punches (like we can see it from 02:13 to 02:16).
        I really doubt that Lewis could have approached him just by feinting an attack. Where have you read it? Are there some pictures or videos of this encounter?

      • Stuart Leggat

        I’ll get the link to Joe telling it exactly as it happened…I’d put my money on Joe or top wrestlers against any boxer in an anything goes fight…however, if you handicap the wrestler or top martial artist with rules and restrictions, that’s a different matter…

        One other wee thing…Joe came away with the comment that he thought the hardest guys of any of the fighting sports would be wrestlers and he included himself as probably coming out second best to the best of these guys…very honest of him to say so i thought…

      • To Stuart and Stuart Leggat
        Thanks for your replies but I’ve some doubts about it.
        Has Thomas Bruce precised his source in his book “Bruce Lee fighting spirit” new edition in 2002?

        1) I haven’t found neither photos nor videos of this press conference.

        2) I find odd that Lewis, who according to his claim was pursuing acting not fighting, could have been in the physical condition to be fast enough to surprise Ali like that.

        3) Lewis would have performed a fireman’s carry takedowm on Ali. Lewis wanted to become a professional wrestler before having the bug for karate. He never became a professional wrestler.
        However, according to black Belt June 1967, Lewis was specialized in Greco-Roman Wrestling (Article Tournament of Champion).
        Greco-Roman wrestling allows all throws, except the ones which are achieved by contacting your opponent’s lower body with your limbs.
        Here’s a video of a fireman’s carry takedown :

        The fireman’s carry takedown is strictly forbidden in Greco-Roman wrestling because you hook the lower body of your opponent with this technique.
        How Lewis could have learnt it?

        4) Lewis would have stated that he feinted Ali with a shoulder fake in which Ali reacted to before shooting at his leg. I know that Lewis trained extensively in boxing with Joey Orbillo, but how the hell could he have succeeded in feinting such an experienced and a great boxing champion like Ali?
        I find that rather far-fetched.

        5) Even if we’d conceive that Lewis knew how to perform the fireman’s carry takedown despite the fact that this technique is forbidden in Greco-Roman wrestling. Lewis didn’t train in grappling neither with Bruce nor Orbillo. He trained in this wrestling (when he was 14) before joining the Marines in 1962.
        How could he have performed successfully a move that he had perhaps rarely used during 14 years (at least he never used it in his entire career of professional fighter)?

    • Hi Avenger, thank you for taking the time to locate and post the demos!
      Let me start by saying that I had been given a rare opportunity to see ALL of Bruce Lee’s demos, in late 1973 at the Jhoon Rhee Institute in Bloomington Minnesota where I had trained for a time. You may know that Bruce Lee & Jhoon Rhee were very close friends. Lee’s entire demo/lecture on the day Vic Moore participated, lasted about 15 minutes. Bruce had asked for a volunteer with extremely fast reflexes. Out of several that had volunteered, Moore was ultimately chosen. Lee told Moore he would be standing at a distance of approximately four feet, would throw ‘a punch’ (there were 5 actually) at his face, and Moore was to block it if he could. Out of the five punches launched at Moore’s face, he blocked zero. There was NEVER a time when Moore was to try to punch Lee. This segment of the demo was to show Lee launching what he called an unstoppable punch, nothing more. This is why I know Moore was telling an out and out lie. The footage of film that Moore had participated in was approximately one and a half minutes in it’s entirety.
      In the end, we may to agree to disagree, but let’s brekadown your well, thought out post piece by piece…

      You said: “In my link, Moore claimed that the agreement was to score in the chest. Take a look at the block of Moore. The block itself looks to be aimed to top chest area, and not the face, while Bruce aimed Moore’s face.”

      Bruce aimed at Moore’s face, because that’s where he said the punches were going to be thrown. If you stop the video in the earliest part of frame #38, you’ll see Moore’s hand in the area just under his and Lee’s nose. Moore clearly could have blocked the punch if he were fast enough.

      Avenger: “So Bruce would have delivered an unexpected attack to catch Moore off-guard but he has still missed the target, employed a bad timing to attack and came to Moore’s reach with his guard down and unable to deliver another attack.”

      I am trying to understand your logic. There was NO ‘unexpected attack’. Lee had clearly told Moore precisely what he was going to do and did it. Moore knew fully well what to expect.
      Lee threw the punches at Moore’s face. The video clearly shows Lee aiming for Moore’s face.
      It didn’t matter if his guard was down. It wasn’t a training lesson. Lee KNEW there was not going to be any retaliation on Moore’s part. It was just a demo of an incredibly fast punch. There was to be no defensive attack, so there was nothing to defend against. Do you now understand where I’m going with this?

      Avenger: “Let’s compare Lee’s punches with the ones demonstrated by Wong Shun Leung, who trained Bruce in Wing Chun. Wong Shun Leung’s punches looks very different compared to Bruce’s punches. Are you really sure that Bruce Lee used WIng Chun punches while punching the bag?”

      Excellent question!! Let’s look at this logically…Lee had ‘some’ formal training in Wing Chun by the time the bag footage was shot in the mid 1960′s. He knew that the Wing Chun system was inherently flawed within a few years of his arrival here in America. He then started to modify parts of the system to be more street effective. Lee then called what he was teaching ‘JunFan Gung Fu’ or ‘Bruce Lee’s Gung Fu’. So it’s safe to say that any punches Lee was throwing at the time had elements of Wing Chun in them.
      No great changes came to Lee’s combat arsenal until 1967 when he had premiered Jeet Kune Do at various international tournaments.
      Leung is performing traditional Wing Chun.in the video. As the video shows, all the punches are launched from the chest centerline to the centerline of the opponent. To gain more power, the practitioner is taught to shift his body slightly while throwing ‘chain’ punches. Lee ultimately came to understand that to get maximum power out of one’s punches, you must get the entire body behind them. In the bag video, that’s precisely what Lee is doing. If you freeze it at frame #50, you’ll see that Bruce has driven the bag back so far with punches, that he is standing almost directly under the chain’s hook.
      According to the people who trained with Lee, he was using a 125 pound bag in that video. That’s only 10-15 pounds lighter than Lee himself at the time. As I had recommended previously, try this yourself on a bag that size, and not only will you learn to get your body behind your punches, you get a hell of a muscular/cardio workout!
      Instead of complaining about Lee’s form, the question you SHOULD be asking yourself is, are the punches powerful enough to do real damage? I can safely assume that if Lee had asked you to be his training bag that day, you would quickly decline!

      Avenger: “Tyson stated in the article who have provided to us that Bruce Lee would be ready to fight to the death. So he implied that Bruce would be ready to kill his opponent! It’s insane! Bruce was an actor and a martial artist, not an assassin!”

      Yes, Bruce Lee would be ready to kill his opponent! Any of us who practice street effective combat would! If you have never had to defend your life from someone trying to take it, you can’t possibly understand the warrior mindset. Where Bruce Lee grew up, Triad gang members ran rampant (it is still the same today I understand), and Lee was constantly fighting with not only them, but other practitioners of Wing Chun and various other martial art styles. The fights with other MA stylists was more contest of skill than anything else. The battles with the Triads on the otherhand, could have cost him his life. Bruce’s brother Robert said Bruce came home bloody quite often. In fact, on many occasions he came home so bloody, that his family thought he needed emergency medical attention, only to find out the blood was from his opponent. Bruce Lee had even lost a few friends due to the gang wars in Hong Kong at the time. They figured eventually he was going to die or go to prison, so they sent him to America, as he was already a U.S. citizen.

      Avenger: “Tyson. You know, one of the most dangerous heavyweight boxing champion that has ever lived. This fighter was so fast, explosive and powerful that he destroyed litterraly others heavyweight boxers very quickly (for example he knocked out Michael Spinks on the 27th June 1988 in 1mn 31s!)! I don’t even dare imagining what it would be if Bruce Lee took one of Tyson’s blows.”

      First, let me say that I agree with you that Tyson was a fantastic boxer in his prime. No doubt about it! However, he still has the problem of being reflex trained to attack and defend the upper body only. According to professional boxer Ed Hart, Bruce Lee punched with the power of a 230 pound boxer. We wont even go into how powerful his kicks were.
      With that being said, Bruce Lee would NOT want to get hit in the head by Tyson. Lee would certainly not try and out punch Tyson. He was much too smart for that I presume. Instead, he would be attacking his legs with kicks. A well timed sidekick to Tyson’s knee like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLs6azXleZE, would invert his forward leg and Tyson would drop like a stone. It would be all over for Iron Mike.

      Avenger: “If I understand well, Joe Lewis would have feinted a blow and grabbed Ali? I really doubt that Lewis could have approached him just by feinting an attack. Where have you read it? Are there some pictures or videos of this encounter?”

      The interview with Joe Lewis can be found here: http://www.bruceleedivinewind.com/joelewis.html

      Excerpt from the interview – “Muhammad Ali was getting ready to fight the wrestler, Inoki, from Japan. He was at the Olympic Auditorium in Los Angeles doing a press conference in the boxing ring. I simply asked him what he would do if a wrestler did a fake punch at his head and shot for his leg to take him to the ground. He told me to step in the ring and demonstrate. The press pushed me between the ropes, and I found myself face to face with Ali. We were both in street clothes, and he had his hands up shuffling side to side using lateral footwork movements against me. I did a shoulder fake, which he reacted to, and shot for his leg. The instance I hooked his leg, I froze. I was too embarrassed to dump him on his butt. He bent forward and wrapped his arms around my waist, and I heard everybody in the place laugh. I picked him up, did a fireman’s carry takedown, dumping him on his back, and pinned him on the mat. Everybody grabbed me and pulled me off quickly. I jumped up, telling everybody we were just playing. Ali stood up next to me and put his arm around my shoulder. At the time, I was only about 180 pounds because I was pursuing acting not fighting, and my weight was really down. Ali’s first comment to me was, “You lifted weights when you were younger, didn’t you?” I’m sure he could tell I was extremely strong and hard as a brick. Then we did the same movement again, and I pinned him again a second time in a row. That’s when he showed me how he was going to fight Inoki with his back constantly against the ropes.”

      Lewis’s point was that Ali was a boxer who has only trained and is conditioned to attack and defend the upper body. He would be at a martial artist’s mercy, because he wouldn’t know how to defend against kicks or grappling.

      • You’re welcome.
        As far as I remember, this demonstration of Bruce and Vic Moore took place during Ed Parker Longbeach’s tournament. How Jhoon Rhee could have had the actual footage?
        From the extracts I’d seen, it seemed to me that Moore made a block for deflecting an attack that aimed his top chest, while Bruce aimed his face. My point was that if Moore expected to be hit at the top chest while Bruce aimed to his face, then he would have caught Moore off-guard.

        It seems clear that the punches practiced by Bruce Lee are very differents of the ones demonstrated by Wong Shun Leung. So it’s safe to claim that Bruce hasn’t used Wing Chun punches while punching the bag, and that he has tried to use boxing techniques.
        The way that Bruce works out in this video isn’t effective.

        If Bruce Lee could hit like a 230lbs heavyweight boxer like Ed Hart would have claimed it, why did he workout with a 125lbs bag?
        Besides, let’s compare his work-out with a famous heavyweight boxing champion :

        Rocky Marciano was around 185lbs, and his blows looked much more powerful than the ones of Bruce. Marciano worked with an heavier bag than Bruce (from 01:00).
        So this claim of Ed Hart doesn’t hold water.

        You’ve described a situation of legitime defense, in which the victim of an agression has to use any means necessary to save his life, even kill his agressor. The victim hasn’t engaged the conflict, it’s the agressor who has done it. Tyson didn’t imply it. He just said :”Bruce Lee was a street fighter, he’s got to fight to the death… I’m not going to fight Bruce Lee.”
        It’s implied that Bruce was looking for fights, so he wasn’t a victim, but a potential agressor who was ready to fight to the death. We could even imply that, if he really killed some people, that he had premeditaded his crime. He would have even involved in gang fights against the Triads? All those events refer to Bruce’s puberty in Hong Kong.

        At this time, Bruce studied martial arts, but he also played in a lot of movies. He was an actor. So yesterday, Bruce would have struggled and perhaps killed a Triad’s member, and tomorrow, Bruce would have played in a movie with the peace of mind. Playing in movies isn’t the best way to stay discret.
        Besides, how the police could have let him go to the USA, knowing he’d be involved in murder cases? How Bruce Lee could go back in Hong Kong several times (1965, 1971) without even being attacked by the Triads and other gangs or tracked by the Police?
        I find that rather far-fetched.

        You think that Bruce would have the time to kick Tyson’s knee and break it? Just watch how fast Tyson moved in his prime :

        As soon as Bruce would have armed his kick, Tyson would get him with a terrific punch and Bruce would be at best knocked-out.
        Let’s be reasonable. If Bruce would have crossed Tyson’s path, he would have run as fast as possible !

        Thank your for this interview of Lewis. However I’ve some doubts about it, and I’ve provided the details to Stuart and Stuart Leggat.

      • Hi Avenger, first, let me point out that I had mistakenly attributed comments to you in a recent post made by MMAJUNKIE. My apologies!

        Let’s address your points one at a time.

        Avenger: “As far as I remember, this demonstration of Bruce and Vic Moore took place during Ed Parker Longbeach’s tournament. How Jhoon Rhee could have had the actual footage?”

        I do not know exactly how Rhee obtained the footage. What I do know is Parker had given Bruce copies of both of his appearances at his international tournaments (1964 & 1967), so Lee could use them for marketing purposes, as did Parker. Since Bruce & Jhoon were extremely close friends (I highly recommend reading Rhee’s book ‘Bruce Lee & I’), I would imagine that Bruce had given Jhoon Rhee copies as well. After all, Bruce wasn’t the only performer, and there was some great action at those things! Either Bruce gave Jhoon copies of the demos, or it’s highly possible Linda had after Lee had passed. Heck, I have given my friends copies of stuff I’ve recorded in my studio, and they in return, so it’s not too far fetched to assume Lee had done so too.

        Included in the visual presentation that day at the Jhoon Rhee Institute was never before seen footage of Lee flipping and twisting out of holds that (Judo) Gene LeBell had tried to put on Bruce. Very much like the flip Lee did on LeBell on the Ironside episode ‘Tagged for Murder’. Lee was demonstrating the ‘be like water’ principle. While there was only a few minutes of 8mm footage of Lee/LeBell, it was quite impressive indeed!

        Avenger: “From the extracts I’d seen, it seemed to me that Moore made a block for deflecting an attack that aimed his top chest, while Bruce aimed his face. My point was that if Moore expected to be hit at the top chest while Bruce aimed to his face, then he would have caught Moore off-guard.”

        Okay, let’s run with your hypothesis…

        Even if Moore had assumed the punches were going to his chest, he
        1). should have STILL been able to block them, as his hands started down at his sides and ended in the facial area. The block would have reached the chest area before moving up to the face, so that’s out. In any case, Moore’s attempted block can clearly be seen at face level upon completion each and every time.

        2). Bruce had thrown 8 punches, and Moore blocked zero. Are you saying that Lee would have not made it clear before ANY of those 8 punches that Moore was to block to the face, and not the chest?

        Avenger: “It seems clear that the punches practiced by Bruce Lee are very differents of the ones demonstrated by Wong Shun Leung. So it’s safe to claim that Bruce hasn’t used Wing Chun punches while punching the bag, and that he has tried to use boxing techniques.”

        Good point! However, we KNOW the only formal training Lee had in his entire life (as far as being a regular ma student attending school) was in Wing Chun. Those punches do appear to be coming more from boxing than Wing Chun, but we have no idea what Lee would have labeled them. Also, we have no idea as to what a punch from Leung would look like being thrown from the position Lee’s hands were in at the start of each of his punches, as the video only shows Leung launching punches from the centerline chest area. I say again, the question one should be asking is ‘are the punches Lee had launched on the bag powerful?’ I would say very definitely so! After all Lee was only concerned with the results of his punches and kicks, not how pretty they looked.

        Avenger: “The way that Bruce works out in this video isn’t effective.”

        Believe me, I have had hundreds (literally) of people that I had met in person and over the internet tell me that those punches would be ineffective. My reply is invariably, that I would bet a month’s salary that they wouldn’t want to be on the receiving end of those punches. I’ve even offered to have these guys come and take the same type of punches (no gloves as Lee did) from a student of mine who is very close to Lee’s size and weight. You know what? In all of those years, I have had ZERO takers!

        Avenger: “If Bruce Lee could hit like a 230lbs heavyweight boxer like Ed Hart would have claimed it, why did he workout with a 125lbs bag?”

        Joe Lewis: “You should never work with a bag weighing more than l00 pounds, and I mean never. If anyone tells you different, they do not know what they are talking about.”
        Interview here: http://www.bruceleedivinewind.com/joelewis.html

        Apparently, Lee and Lewis were like minded at the time this video of Lee was shot. However, Lewis, Norris and Wall ultimately made Lee a 300 pound bag (as a joke), and Lee had included a workout routine with that bag as well, so Lee obviously had changed his viewpoint at that time. Which fits perfectly in line with Lee’s evolution as a fighter, body builder (per se) and martial artist. Bruce Lee was constantly evolving throughout his adult life.

        Avenger: “Tyson didn’t imply it. He just said :”Bruce Lee was a street fighter, he’s got to fight to the death… I’m not going to fight Bruce Lee.”

        You are right! Tyson made his point very clear. Lee was someone who was ‘willing’ to fight to the death and he was not! Therein lies the difference between a sport fighter and a warrior so to speak. Anyone who has fought on the streets knows that the possibility of death is very real and omni-present, and are willing to take those risks. I find it funny how some try and re-interpret what Tyson said, when it’s as plain as the nose on their faces.

        Avenger: “He would have even involved in gang fights against the Triads? All those events refer to Bruce’s puberty in Hong Kong.”

        Yes, there are many accounts of Bruce Lee fighting Triad gang members. First, let me point out that there are many factions of Triads. Most people do not understand that it wasn’t and isn’t just one unified organization.
        When Lee was sixteen, he had very nearly killed the son of a well known Triad gang leader. The backlash from this was when Bruce really started cutting his teeth on what it’s like to fight to preserve one’s own life. These guys are very scary dudes indeed!
        As far as referring to Lee’s puberty? Not sure exactly what you mean, but he wasn’t just some young 12 year old kid when these events were taking place in Hong Kong. Lee was (or very nearly) 19 years old when he came to the United States in 1959, so he wasn’t just some very young kid fighting on the streets of Hong Kong. He saw the worst of those street battles between the ages of 16 and 19.

        Avenger: “At this time, Bruce studied martial arts, but he also played in a lot of movies. He was an actor. So yesterday, Bruce would have struggled and perhaps killed a Triad’s member, and tomorrow, Bruce would have played in a movie with the peace of mind. Playing in movies isn’t the best way to stay discret.”

        I’m not sure you are aware that the Lee family was well off enough financially, that they had servants and butlers. Bruce’s dad was a VERY famous Chinese movie/touring actor, so he had got Bruce parts in movies as a child and even a couple as a young adult. The people that Bruce Lee had hung around with were street thugs. Bruce was even in a gang himself until one day he wondered what would happen to him if his gang wasn’t there to help protect him.
        This is when he started his MA training under Man/Leung. After class ended, Lee would go out and ‘test’ what he learned that day on other fighters from the area. The vast majority of these guys were Triad gang members.
        Bruce Lee LOVED to fight, and this was his proving ground.
        Of course, when he came to United States, he had a real eye opener, as American men were larger than Asian men, so he had to re-evaluate his skills and adjust for the size and weight difference. I had recently posted a video of James DeMile talking about this very thing. DeMile had accurately stated that “a streetfight consisted of two people, and the one left standing was the winner. It doesn’t matter if one is 135 pounds, and the other is 335 pounds.”
        This was the world of Bruce Lee…
        In any case, if they wanted Lee badly enough, it isn’t difficult to find out where a person lives. All one has to do is follow them home.

        Avenger: “Besides, how the police could have let him go to the USA, knowing he’d be involved in murder cases?”

        I’m not sure what you mean by this, but to the best of my knowledge, Bruce Lee had never killed anyone. I simply said that Bruce had friends who had lost their lives in streetfights in Hong Kong. Bruce couldn’t have been legally held accountable for any of them.

        Avenger: “How Bruce Lee could go back in Hong Kong several times (1965, 1971) without even being attacked by the Triads and other gangs or tracked by the Police? I find that rather far-fetched”

        The police could do nothing to him as he had not committed a serious crime to the best of my knowledge. He merely had been hauled in numerous times for fighting, and the cops were getting tired of arresting him.
        The Triads on the other hand, had approached Lee when he returned to Hong Kong after he became famous, and wanted to siphon money from the profitts of his films. Lee had told them to go f**k themselves. I know that several of Lee’s close friends and family members had commented on this, as well as Raymond Chow who owned Golden Harvest Studios in Hong Kong, and Paul Heller & Fred Weintraub (WB producers of ETD). So there is some real first hand accounts of this. World Karate champion and close friend of Bruce Lee Pat Burleson is convinced that the Triads made good on their threats against Lee to have him killed, as he lived in Japan for some time, and knows that they have some very unconventional and effective ways of killing.

        Avenger: “You think that Bruce would have the time to kick Tyson’s knee and break it? Just watch how fast Tyson moved in his prime”

        I KNOW Bruce Lee could have done this. Lee’s anticipatory skills were very fine tuned. That is one reason Steen considered him ‘otherworldy’
        Like Bruce said “To reach me, you have to move to me. This offers me the opportunity to intercept you”.

        Avenger: “As soon as Bruce would have armed his kick, Tyson would get him with a terrific punch and Bruce would be at best knocked-out”

        Bruce would have waited for Tyson to attack, and intercepted his knee as he was moving in. Lee’s kick to the knee would have stopped the attack immediately as was done in the video I had posted. Lee had done this time and time again on various fighters to show it’s effectiveness. This technique worked so well, that Joe Lewis (aiming at his opponent’s mid section) used it to win a world title! That was the only kick he used that day. Every time his opponent attacked, Lewis intercepted the attack with a sidekick to the chest or stomach. He discusses this in his book “How To Master Bruce Lee’s Fighting System”.

        Avenger: “Let’s be reasonable. If Bruce would have crossed Tyson’s path, he would have run as fast as possible!”

        You see, I AM being reasonable! And I’m basing my argument on how Lee would have reacted via first hand accounts of those who knew and trained with Bruce Lee.
        You don’t even have any anecdotes from a source, reputable or otherwise saying that he witnessed Bruce Lee turning tails and running from anyone.
        You must understand I have been around for a very long time, and had seen many, many things in my day.
        Any topic I debate, I have researched thoroughly, whether it be Bruce Lee or anyone else. The one thing I know about Bruce Lee is, he wouldn’t have run from anybody. Bruce Lee loved to fight. I believe Joe Lewis even made that exact comment in the interview I had posted. Bruce loved to fight very large opponents because unless a small man was very fast, and powerful, they just weren’t enough of a challenge for him. This is why he liked guys like pro boxer Ed Hart and James DeMile. They were fast, powerful and big! Now, you take a guy like Lee who salivated at the very thought of a good challenge, coupled with his speed, power and timing, and you’d quickly understand why I feel the way I do about Lee being the victor.

        You have to ask yourself one thing…why would all of these world champion fighters, the best of the best in their respective fields, and many of them streetfighters, say that they would put their money on Bruce Lee any time, anywhere, against anybody, no matter how big or small, with any fighting background? Because they had witnessed someone who had utterly blown their minds. I had spoken with world Karate Champion John Worley personally about what is was like sparring with Bruce Lee, and he said that in all of the years he’d been fighting and winning tournaments, he saw nobody (himself included) of Lee’s fighting caliber. Now coming from this man, that is one heck of a statement to make!!
        You have to quit thinking in terms of large always beating small. It doesn’t happen that way in the real world. Heck, Royce Gracie took on guys twice his size, from various fighting backgrounds in the early UFC’s and wiped the floor with them. And NONE of the Gracies are good strikers. In fact their punches and kicks are appalling! As I said before, Bruce wouldn’t try to out punch Tyson, he would work in areas Tyson was unfamiliar with, such as kicking below the waist and grappling. You take someone out of their element, and it’s all over.

      • Re Steen`s appraisal of Lee…i just watched at youtube, Steen beating Norris for the world tilte…have to say for a big guy he was incredibly fast with his legendary kicks, but even his speed and power of kicking didn`t come close to Lee and for him to praise Lee as he did, it just leaves you bewildered at what Lee must have truly been like to watch in action against guys like Steen, DeMile etc…

        In his youtube interview, 225ib heavyweight boxer DeMile told Lee after first seeing him do demos on stage, that his routine would only bring him a lot of pain in the real world of fighting…Lee invited him to punch him…surrounded by females, DeMile tried to look real good, mean and lightning fast by throwing a very fast and powerful jab at Lee`s face…he was totally shocked when this wee 135ib guy caught him by the fist/arm and locked him in this grip, then was able to manipulate big DeMile any way he wanted…shocked and embarrassed DeMile said he could either go away and kill himself as he was so embarrassed or join up with this teacher and learn his fighting secrets…needles to say he became one of Bruce`s first students…anybody who has not seen part one of the DeMile interview at youtube should do it right now as it is truly fascinating…

      • Avenger…Here is a quote from Joe Lewis regarding Lee’s punching style on the heavybag

        Interviewer: I have read stories about Bruce Lee competing in international boxing while he was in high school in Hong Kong. Any truth?

        JL: “I do not believe this to be true. Bruce and I loved international boxing and he never told me this. Watch the early films of him in America working the heavy bag and you will see that he is hitting using Wing Chun punches. He is not delivering like a boxer.”

      • just a wee clip with one head kick that gives some indication of his speed…i`d bet every penny i have it`s far from the fastest he could do and had to be performed around this speed to allow the camera to catch it…judge for yourself…

      • just came across a Jene LeBelle interview where he says Bruce was the best in the world at that time…below is a wee segment of the interview…

        Gene also recalled the time when his friend, martial arts legend Bob Wall called and was all excited about working with Bruce Lee in the film “Enter The Dragon.”
        “Bob called and said, ‘this guy is the toughest guy in the world.’ Of course I’d been working with Bruce and I told Bob that Bruce was also the nicest guy in the world. Another thing that made Bruce a superstar was his outstanding showmanship and on screen charisma.”
        In addition to working with Bruce, Gene also shared a lot of screen time with his son Brandon.

        “Brandon was a very tough martial artist and his dad would have been very proud of him,” Gene said. “The way Brandon and I met was kind of funny. Mike Vendrell is a great stuntman as well as an outstanding martial artist and Brandon’s kung fu teacher; well he frequently worked out with Brandon and one day Mike brought him to my dojo. Mike (Mike Vendrell is a man that Gene respects so much he named a move after him in his Encyclopedia of Finishing Holds: “The Vendrell Vice.”) introduced us and asked me to work out with Brandon. Brandon said, “You really want me to work with this old man?” Well I was about 50 then so I got on the mat and showed him how sadistic some old men are. (Gene claims he’s still an old man and some claim he’s just as sadistic. Gene’s definition of “sadistic” is administering an attitude adjustment.) We had a lot of fun together and by the end of our workout I think Brandon went away with a new found respect for judo and senior citizens.”

      • would help if i`d spelt Gene`s name right…lol

      • You lost me there concerning the demo between Bruce Lee and Vic Moore.
        First you claimed 6 days ago that you had seen the entire footage in which Bruce Lee would have thrown 5 punches to Moore’s face and he couldn’t block any of those blows.
        Now you claim that Bruce would have launched 8 punches to Moore.
        Which version is true?

        In the interview you’ve provided me, Lewis has stated that it’s not recommended to work with a bag that would be heavier than 100lbs to perform the side kick with a perfect tempo. He isn’t talking about punches here.
        Watch the training footage of Rocky Marciano. We can see he’s working on power and some combinations. What’s the point to punch a 125lbs bag though you can punch as hard as a 230lbs heavyweight boxer? How can you work on power with such a light bag?

        When I heard DeMile who introduced Ed Hart as a professional boxer, I looked for his boxing records out of curiosity.
        I haven’t found any boxing records of an heavyweight boxer called Ed Hart.
        Then I look for James DeMile boxing records as you’ve considered him as a professional boxer too.
        Once again, I’ve found nothing about an heavyweight boxer called Jim DeMile or James Demile.
        Check this on the site “boxer records” : http://boxrec.com/search.php?status=all&cat=boxer&first_name=james+&last_name=DeMile&submit=Go&pageID=1
        You’ve presented those men as professional boxers…but it seems that neither of them has any boxing records! It’s odd, isn’t it?
        How can we be sure they are as tough as they pretend to be?

        Anyway, you’ve said that Bruce Lee, once arrived in the USA, had to change his fighting strategy due to the difference of gabarits of the americans who were taller and bigger than the Chinese. So, when he got involved in street fights, Bruce Lee had never been opposed to a terrific fighter like Mike Tyson. It’s a fact.
        Therefore, Bruce would have likely been surprised by Tyson’ size, style, explosivity, quickness and outstanding power (James DeMile and Ed Hart aren’t pro boxers like Tyson, since they haven’t any boxing records). His training with Hart and DeMile would have been useless to “prepare” him to such a confrontation.
        Besides, you imagine Bruce being able to beat Tyson thanks to a kick. The question is : are you really sure he could have used such a move with efficiency?
        There is a few internauts that have spoken about the bout Bruce would have had with a man called Wong Jack Man.
        Here’s what MysticNinjajay has written about this bout : “Bruce’s account on the other hand is more believable. While he says he made short work of the Kung Fu cat (Wong Jack Man if I’ve understood well) he fought in San Francisco he does acknowledge that he bruised his hands hitting the back of his head and that he was unusually exhausted after the fight which only lasted about 3 minutes.”
        Why Bruce Lee hasn’t used his famous effective kick against WJM? That’d save him the trouble to fight for 3 minutes.
        Moreover, he succeeded in hurting his hands by hitting the back of his opponent’s head, so probably when he chased his opponents.
        This fight occured when Lee settled down in the USA, so after his past as a street fighter in Hong Kong.
        How an experienced street fighter would have done the mistake to hit with his fists the back of the head of his opponent while chasing after him?

        So not only Bruce hadn’t probably performed his “effective kick” in a street fight, but he managed to hurt himself while his opponent was running from him.
        If those facts are attested, then I’m afraid that Bruce Lee wouldn’t be able to do any harm to Tyson. Your scenario doesn’t hold water.
        In this case, it’s safe to presume that Bruce would have tried to RUN AWAY from Tyson!!

        Eventually, you said that Bruce Lee would have nearly killed the son of a Triad gang leader in his late teens? He would have risked not only his life by doing so, but also the life of his family. Yet, he didn’t hesitate to come back to Hong Kong in 1965 with his son Brandon and his wife Linda to see his parents.
        Why the Triads didn’t seek revenge on him at this time if he really nearly killed the son of a well known Triad gang member?

      • this is not related to your recent post…just a copy of something from Wikipedia that i`m sure most people have read somewhere, but worth reading and familiarizing with again…does anyone know of any present day fighter or even from the past, that we can see on youtube, who could match the below speeds by Bruce?…

        Bruce Lee had his punching and closing speed measured with an electric timer at Glover’s house. In the book “Bruce Lee – Between Wing Chun and JKD”, Glover states, Lee could land a punch in around five hundredths of a second (0.05 second) from 3 feet away, and could close from 5 feet away in around eight hundredths of a second (0.08 second). While Glover’s own times from three feet were between 11 and 18 hundredths of a second (0.11 and 0.18 second). Closing from a distance they were in the low twenties.[

      • To Stuart.
        “Bruce Lee had his punching and closing speed measured with an electric timer at Glover’s house. In the book “Bruce Lee – Between Wing Chun and JKD”, Glover states, Lee could land a punch in around five hundredths of a second (0.05 second) from 3 feet away, and could close from 5 feet away in around eight hundredths of a second (0.08 second). While Glover’s own times from three feet were between 11 and 18 hundredths of a second (0.11 and 0.18 second). Closing from a distance they were in the low twenties.”

        What Glover has stated seems incredible. It would even imply that both Bruce and him were faster than Muhammad Ali!

        There’s a video of Bruce Lee in which we can see him performing the unstoppable punch on Vic Moore :

        Watch from 0:32.
        Bruce seems to be around 3 feet away from Moore.

        If Bruce could land a punch in 0.05s at this distance, how Vic Moore could have had the time to react to Bruce’s attack?
        Indeed, the defender has always a delay time (in general far superior to 0.05s) before reacting to an attack.
        So if Bruce had landed this punch in 0.05s, he would have finished his attack LONG BEFORE Moore could have made a single move!
        Moore reacted to Bruce’s attack before the latter finished his attack, questioning greatly the assertion of Glover.

        First James DeMile described Ed Hart as a professional boxer though there isn’t any boxing records of him. Then Jesse Glover attributed to Lee a surhuman speed feat, and implied that he could punch even faster than Ali.
        Why had they never competed in boxing if they were so fast?
        If I remember well, Jesse Glover is quoted by James DeMile to have trained with Bruce Lee in the same time than him, doesn’t it?

        I really think we have to take with a pinch of salt the assertions of those guys.

      • i don`t have an answer for you re the speed thing…what i am going to do is get in touch with the guy from Glasgow, whom Jessie Glover described as having the same explosive speed and power as Bruce and the only martial artist he`s come across in all his years of travelling the world and mixing with the best, who compares to Bruce re speed and power…I`m going to ask him if he`s timed himself and, if not, if he would consider doing so to give us a realistic idea of the punching time of himself and Bruce…the guy i`m talking about is Tommy Carruthers…check him out at youtube…Tommy is a massive Bruce fan and teaches JKD…you may have met or know of him as he, too, travels the globe performing demonstrations, seminars etc I would love to see someone like yourself, who is extremely doubtful about what Bruce could do, spar with Tommy to get a realistic idea what it must have been like to have to deal with the speed and power of Bruce…

        Re why, if he was even faster than Ali, why did he now take up boxing, because you`re lighting quick does not mean you have to want to be a boxer and be forced to fight in the same very restricted way boxers have to. Simple as that!! Also, is it not true that smaller men can normally throw a punch faster than very big men in the boxing and martial arts fields of fighting?? Bigger men having much longer arms?

        As for DeMile and Ed Hart, both were heavily involved in anything goes street fighting before taking up with Lee and had bad reputations, especially Ed Hart, who was noted for being able to take a tremendous punch and could punch like a double barreled shotgun…these guys also fought others who were much bigger than their 224lbs and 245lbs, respectively, with no rules preventing them giving or receiving extreme punishment…also, watch Ed Hart at youtube as he instructs in his last years of life…he certainly comes across as a true expert in fighting to me and someone who`d know what he was talking about and with opinions worth listening to.

      • Stuart Leggat

        watching Tommy here is like watching Bruce according to Jessie Glover and i get the impression it`s way faster than Ali and makes it much more understandable why Jessie recorded the times he did…Jessie also said an explosive punch from Bruce or Tommy to an opponents chest could stop their heart from beating, such is the power and speed of them…judge for yourself…

        Tommy`s club is 10 minutes away from me so looking forward to calling in and seeing him in action up close..

      • To Stuart and Stuart Leggat

        What Carruthers will obtain in making a sparring with a famous anonymous?
        Why don’t you ask Carruthers to organize a sparring between him and Tyson instead?
        It would be the occasion to hit two birds with one stone : proving the value of JKD, the martial art created by Bruce Lee and validate the scenario of Nebula One, in which Bruce Lee, a lightweight, would have destroyed Tyson, a terrific heavyweight boxing champion, by kicking his knee.
        I’m not doubtful about the fact that Bruce Lee could land a punch to a target which would be 3 feet away from him in 0.05s, the video of the demonstration between Moore and Bruce Lee clearly proves there’s no way that Bruce could do that.

        “As for DeMile and Ed Hart, both were heavily involved in anything goes street fighting”. I believed that DeMile stated that Ed Hart was a professional boxer. I’m pretty amazed to notice that those guys (Jesse Glover – deceased at 77, Ed Hart – deceased at 74, James DeMile – still alive at 78 years!) seems to have a long life for ruthless street fighters who were involved in anything goes street fighting.
        “these guys also fought others who were much bigger than their 224lbs and 245lbs”. Were there fighting against Sumos or what?
        According to James DeMile, those fierce warriors got beat up by a 135lbs Bruce Lee…ROFL! What was the point to defeat Sumos if it was to lose against a shrimp?

        Ask Tommy Carruthers about Jesse Glover being faster than Muhammad Ali.
        For info, In the May 5, 1969 Sports Illustrated Ali’s jab was measured with an omegascope. Ali’s jab, it was found, could smash a balsa board 16.5 inches away in 19/100 of a second. It covered the distance in 4/100 of a second.
        The board wasn’t from 3 feet away of Ali, whereas Glover boasted to be able to land a punch from 3 feet away between 11/100 and 18/100 of a second.
        http://coxscorner.tripod.com/ali.html

      • Stuart Leggat

        I’ll only respond at the moment to one of yer points ( starvin’ and just about to head round for a curry…lol)…Jessie, in one of the YouTube videos featuring Carruthers, does a voice over and introduces Tomny by saying words to the effect that, if you ever wondered what it was like to watch Bruce workout, watch Tommy as he’s similar speed and power to Bruce….so, having watched Tommy and being a life-long mega fan of Ali ( he was the sole reason I took up boxing at school) I see Tommy punching quicker as he demonstrates a fight scenario…and he’s moving at such a speed (not his fastest I’d reckon) that it’s easier to understand why Jessie may well have recorded the incredible times he did – remember, Mike Stone said Bruce would be WAY too quick for the eyes of most judges to follow and see what he was doing if Bruce was involved in tournament fighting. Also (and I’ll get the link to this interview) J Chan said that Bruce in full flow was a blur like a fight scene in a cartoon…he also said some other fighters are extremely fast, but you can still follow and see their movements, but not Bruce…just for the record, I don’t rate Chan as a fighter or potential fighter at all…but he’s a very able stuntman…

      • To Stuart Leggat

        Since you’re a fan of Ali, this video should bring back some good memories to you :

        Watch the outstanding punchig sequence Ali performed on this opponent from 01:38 to 01:42. Watch also another sequence from 02:00 to 02:05. You can barely see the punches. Take a look at the slown down sequence of the anchor punch Ali performed on Sonny Liston and knocked him down at 02:58. At normal speed, you barely see anything.

        In the video you posted, Carruthers showed his speed with a compliant partner that barely moved in a demonstration of a fight “scenario”. However Ali fought for real. He wasn’t confronted to a compliant partner, but a real opponent whose goal was to knock him out!
        It’s easy for Carruthers to look fast while the partner barely moves. Bruce Lee has done the same. However, it’s a whole different story when the guy who’s front of you moves, hits back and tries to hurt you.
        It’s much more difficult to deliver fast and accurate blows to a mobile target like in Ali’s fights than to a static one like in Carruthers’ demos.
        You can’t compare Ali and Carruthers.
        Try to find a video where we can see Carruthers sparring or fighting for real.

      • i watched that punch by Ali (Clay) to Liston a couple of years back and it was so fast most people missed at the time of the fight and called the knockdown a fix because they hadn`t seen it landing on Liston…i take your point about his speed…

        re Carruthers only looking fast because the guy he`s teaching isn`t moving…have to say that is nonsense as it is plain to see that he`s moving at way above normal speeds that other highly experienced and able instructors move at when instructing…his speed is more like Bruce Lee speed, just as Jessie commented on…

        Below is that interview with a young Jackie Chan, who was considered the best stuntman in Asia…here he compares Tyson and Ali with Bruce re their punching speeds…i`ve no doubts Chan has seen Tyson and Ali punch up close and in person at their training sessions or at an actual fight as most Hollywood people like Chan attend these occasions regularly and also mix with fighting celebrities at different occasions…

      • Not only were Lee’s hands faster than Ali’s & Tysons, but if you watch this video, his feet may even been faster as well.

      • Stuart Leggat

        easy to see why Jessie recorded the freakishly fast punching speeds of Bruce and why he would have been unsuitable for tournament fighting unless they had a fast action camera recording what he had just done and re-played it in slow-motion…Bruce, thru his truly awesome training regime, developed animal-like reflexes and striking speeds…he trained harder, pushed himself further than probably all other fighters on the planet at that time and he got the benefits from it as seen here…

      • It’s useless to be fast if your blows miss the target. A lot of teachers like Carruthers or Bruce Lee can look fast if their partner barely moves and doesn’t prevent them to make their moves. However, to fight an opponent like Ali has done it is a whole different story.
        Anyway, neither Carruthers nor Bruce Lee could land a punch from 3 feet away in 0.05s unlike Glover stated it. Again, watch the demo between Bruce and Moore. Moore reacted to Bruce’s attacks. If Bruce’s attack would have be executed in 0.05s, Moore wouldn’t even have had the time to make a single move.

        According to Jackie Chan, Bruce Lee’s kicks would have been even faster than the punches of Ali and Tyson.
        I don’t know where Nebula One has found this footage, but I can hardly see Bruce’s face. Let’s compare with this one :

        How can you explain the clear difference of Bruce’ speed between the two videos?

        Jackie Chan started working as a stuntman for Bruce Lee in the movie Big Boss which came out in the mid of 1971.
        However, Linda Lee wrote in her book “The Bruce Lee Story” that Bruce had damaged permanently his fourth sacral nerve in 1970 by lifting weights without warming up! What a blunder! Bruce could barely move during six months and had to take analgesic to ease the pain until the end of his life. So Bruce had his accident before meeting Jackie Chan.
        The footage I’ve provided has been recorded before the accident, and Bruce doesn’t look so fast while performing some kicks.

        Under those conditions, how could you expect him to kick even faster with his aching back which speed would exceed the one of the punches of Ali and Tyson?
        What Jackie Chan has said in this interview doesn’t hold water.

      • you`re writing off and rubbishing just about every statement from expert witnesses who seen Bruce up close and in action so what`s the point in this debate…re injuring his back…yes he most certainly did, but, again, being Bruce Lee, he was utterly determined not to let it stop him doing his thing and he got himself back into top shape, but did still suffer from severe back pain from time to time…maybe someone could go in to detail on this

        when Bruce or Carruthers use their incredible speed and power, they didn`t and don`t miss…to say they did is nuts and especially with Lee…you can watch Tommy spar in one of his youtube videos and he doesn`t miss…

  60. Ok Nebula One, Stuart etc. Thousands upon thousands of guys trained in kung fu – including Wing Chun, whether under Yip Man or others – and TKD. Hundreds of them attained black belts in them, from 1st dan upward. And suddenly one day one guy named Bruce showed up, mashed up some Wing Chun and TKD, then called it Jeet Kun Do, and sold himself as the best of the best, and many thousands bought into what he sold. He was a great promo artist. That is all there is to it.

    Bruce founded JKD only because he was not endorsed to teach TKD or Wing Chun. That is all; there is to it. For God’s sake, the dued got beat up by Wong Jack Man after he tried to kill WJM. Then he never responded to WM’s challenge to fight in public. Now, what does that say to ya all?

    El Alvir was once just like ya all, a helpless adoring, star-struck worshipper. But he evntually matured up and wised up. Now try learning something from El Alvir.

    • Dreamhunter: “And suddenly one day one guy named Bruce showed up, mashed up some Wing Chun and TKD, then called it Jeet Kun Do, and sold himself as the best of the best,”

      Incorrect! Jeet Kune Do is an amalgam of street effetive techniques from a wide variety of martial art styles. Please do your homework before making such claims.
      As far as Lee selling himself as the best of the best? Are you so naive as to belive one couldn’t easily find fraud in such a case?

      Dreamhunter: “He was a great promo artist. That is all there is to it.”

      He was a fantastic promo artist! However, there is much more to it than that.!

      Dreamhunter: “Bruce founded JKD only because he was not endorsed to teach TKD or Wing Chun. That is all; there is to it. For God’s sake,”

      Bruce founded JKD because of the inherent flaws in each individual style of martial art. No ‘one style’ was complete. JKD sought a means to that end, only to have Lee disregard even JKD before he died, as the very fact that it is a label makes it bound by doctrine. Please do your homework!

      Dreamhunter: ” the dued got beat up by Wong Jack Man after he tried to kill WJM. Then he never responded to WM’s challenge to fight in public. Now, what does that say to ya all?”

      Lee never lost that fight to WJM. How do I know? There is no way on earth that the winner of any fight would want a rematch! It is completely ridiculous and preposterous to assume someone would behave in that way. It doesn’t even make sense! WJM lost the fight and needed to save face. End of story!!
      As I said earlier, I had searched for the newspaper the alleged challenge was issued in since I had read about the incident in the early 1970′s. No one (myself included) has ever been able to find any evidence of WJM’s challenge then or today. It’s all BS.

      Dreamhunter: “El Alvir was once just like ya all, a helpless adoring, star-struck worshipper. But he evntually matured up and wised up. Now try learning something from El Alvir.”

      El Avir made several mistakes…

      1). He worshipped Lee as a demi-god. No human should be looked upon in such a way, because mere mortals can’t live up to the expectations of the people who place them on too high of a pedestal.. Lee was human, and he had flaws like the rest of us.

      2). He didn’t do his homework and find the facts. Children often make this mistake. He sounds very young and foolish.

      Let’s break down what he said:
      El Avir: “Like many of you, I grew up wanting to believe, in every way possible, that Bruce Lee was, and will forever be, the greatest fighter to have ever walked the planet.

      Completely naive. I would be impossible to fight every fighter on the planet to come to this conclusion.

      El Avir: ” I studied Jun Fan and believed everything I read about Bruce Lee.”

      If he wasn’t being instructed by one of Lee’s original students, he wasn’t learning Jun Fan.
      Only a child would believe ‘everything’ he read about Bruce Lee. Or anyone for that matter.

      El Avir: “Bruce Lee was martial arts’ Moses. I saw him as Jesus.”

      Does this sound like a mature individual grounded in reality? I think not!

      El Avir: ” It is the classic psychology of idolatry.”

      It certainly is!!!

      El Avir: “Even in the martial arts world of sub-cultures and hero worship, there is a dueling school of thought that considers facts when gauging anyone’s worth as a fighter: fight record. Is the martial artist’s performance quantifiable? Validated?”

      Lee had validated himself to many of the great Masters (and to people such as yourself) PROFESSIONAL FIGHTERS, in his time. He need not have to participate in a tournament, to show others his skill was superior.
      If Tiger Woods had went golfing with someone who beat him effortlessly not just once, but many times, do you not think that Tiger would have great respect and admiration of this individual want to learn from this person? Damn right he would!!!
      Lee had validated himself to these men time and time again. That’s why Lee carries the reputation in the martial art community as being a world class fighter.

      El Avir: “When Bruce Lee was mocked for having amateur skills with the nun-chucks by a reputable nun-chukka expert, I made excuses for Lee.”

      Dan Inosanto is considered one of the foremost experts in Kali and Escrima on the planet. Inosanto had said in many interviews Lee was exceptionally good with Nunchaku. If anyone would know, Inosanto would!
      Secondly, I have to laugh whenever someone says “my instructor said” or ” a reputable expert said”. Ever notice how these clowns never give the name of the person?
      Lastly, there’s no need to make excuses for Lee. Only a child would behave in that manner.

      El Avir: “During the 1970’s, Norris hinted that Bruce Lee was basically good for a non-fighter, and many Lee-freaks wanted to murder Chuck Norris for saying that. Until I grew up, I had always bad-mouthed Chuck Norris for that fact.”

      I have many of the Blackbelt & International Karate magazines from the mid 1960′s through the 1990′s. Cuck Norris was singing a completely different tune when Lee was alive than he sings today. Gee, I wonder why that is? If you want to know what he REALLY said back in the day, seek out these magazines. Oops, I forgot…you wont accept what is said in interviews as fact.

      El Avir: “Bob Wall accounted for not fighting Bruce Lee to the fact that Bruce Lee didn’t want to risk losing his reputation.”

      Before Bruce Lee became a movie star, he had no reputation of ‘The Deadliest Man on the Planet’. He had only done the Green Hornet and a few guest spots on TV and movies. What Bruce Lee did however, was to immerse himself in the ‘real world’ of martial arts by giving demos of his skill at international tournaments. Thousands of fighter and competitors from all over the world had attended these functions.
      This would NOT be a good place to be for someone like Lee to be, if he were nothing but a charlatan. Once Lee had their attention, he went on to dazzle them with his skill.

      Don’t you find it a bit odd that people like El Avir & yourself claim Lee was unproven when the people who were winning tournaments against Chuck Norris, Joe Lewis and Mike Stone were in complete awe of Lee’s skill, Claiming that Lee seemed ‘otherworldly’?
      You bet your ass he had proven himself to these world champion fighters. Guess what? Many of them had decided that they were either not going to comment on Bruce Lee, put a spin on the anecdotes, or tell out and out lies such as Vic Moore did!

      El Avir: “Gene LeBell is credited for having his way with Bruce Lee.”

      From Van Williams (the Green Hornet): “We were all (Williams, Bruce and the director) standing there discussing the day’s shooting schedule. And up from behind Bruce comes this guy who grabs him and put him on his shoulders. We were wondering what was going on? Gene had apparently been told by another staff member to sneak up behind Bruce and put him in some kind of hold. He picked Bruce up and was running around with him on his shoulders. Bruce told LeBell to put him down or he’d kill him. LeBell remarked ” I can’t put you down, you’ll kill me!” LeBell started laughing and told us he was hired by the studio to take the falls for Bruce Lee. LeBell put Bruce down and we all had a good laugh!”

      If El Avir had taken a couple of minutes and did a little research, he would have found out what really happened.

      El Avir: “Kareem Abdul Jabbar spoke about how Bruce’s size deficit was too much for Bruce Lee to overcome against him, even though Jabbar accepted Lee as the master martial artist; when they toiled around in the gym, Bruce Lee couldn’t do much to the 7’2 student.”

      Utter BS! All one has to do is watch ‘A Warrior’s Journey’ to know what Jabaar had really said about Lee’s skill. One has to wonder just where Avir comes up with this stuff??

      El Avir: “Like any school or gym owner, I knew that Bruce Lee had to know what he was doing, but something in the back of my head wondered why he has no proof of being a fighter while the world accepts him as such, as Lee never bothered denying it.”

      Do you see what I mean? Bruce Lee was not a superstar around much of the world while he was alive. Certainly not in America. As for proof of being a fighter? There was plenty of that!

      El Avir: “More so, I wondered why such an expert on fighting would base his choreography on nonsense.”

      Proof the guy has never been in a real fight in his life! You want to see choreography based on nonsense? Look at any of Jackie Chan’s films.

      El Avir: “When I watched videos of Bruce Lee punching a heavy bag, I wanted to bury the footage and never mention it again. I was a boxer who punched a hundred times better (in form) at the age of 15, and I didn’t want the world to get privy onto what I was noticing about my hero.”

      While I had already addressed this in another post on this forum, Avir completely missed the poin tha Lee was using Wing Chun punches. I would like to see a video of Avir hitting a heavybag with Wing Chun punches so we can comment on his form.

      El Avir: ” I never wanted to admit that the slow shutter speeds of those old cameras made everyone appear inhumanly fast.”

      This guy is a complete idiot who knows virtually nothing about the technology!

      El Avir: “When I read about the man he performed the one-inch punch against had bruised ribs from that single punch, I was slightly amazed, but I was more amused by the hyperbole. I knew that it was impossible.”

      It’s not impossible. There are people doing this at exhibitions even to this day. Hell, I can do this. It’s simple laws of body mechanics & physics. No magic here!

      El Avir: “Plus, anyone who knows how to punch can perform this move – hardly a feat.”

      Ok…make up your mind. Is it impossible, or can anyone perform this move?

      El Avir: ” The key is that I, like the rest of Bruce Lee worshippers, wanted to believe every cool thing I read about the man. I wanted to believe that his choreography was proof that he was the best fighter.”

      While I don’t believe in such a thing as ‘the best fighter’. all Avir had to do was read what those have said ‘who were there’, and it would have answered his questions. No second hand ‘hearsay’ stories necessary!

      El Avir: “Mike Tyson became my favorite boxer after I had done away with my belief in the fantasy martial arts, and I’ve been prone to similar exaggerations about him.”

      So, Avir is so removed from reality that he started believing and promoting exaggerated stories of Tyson as well?
      You read it right from the horse’s mouth here folks!!!
      Good god kid, grow the f***k up!!!!

      El Avir: “I dare never to try to ruin Bruce Lee’s legacy, as I love what he has done for martial arts, and I respect him greatly, but because we have never seen him react under dire circumstance, beaten, hit with powerful strikes, we can never presume that he was a fighter of any sort.”

      Yes we can! It’s called ‘expert testimony’. There are plenty of these people who know what they had experienced first hand.

      El Avir: “To people who did see “whatever it is they saw” in regards to Bruce Lee and continue to hold their opinions high and refuse to let go of memories that are gradually perpetuating myths, I question them too: “Could you be at all wrong? At all?”

      Absolutely not! Too many expert martial artists are telling far too similar stories of their experiences with Lee. And many of these guys had never even met one another.

      Case closed…

    • Dreamhunter… while I think your user name would be a cool name for a rock band, it says a lot about you as a person, You seem to be a guy who is disappointed with reality, and on a never ending quest for the proverbial dream. Don’t get me wrong. I have dreams as well. I just know which ones are obtainable, and which are not. I have no dreams or beliefs of Bruce Lee being the best fighter in history, because such a person does not, and cannot exist. Most of the things that we believe can be substantiated by fact. Unlike ‘god’ or ‘a god’ found in most cultures.

      In Lee’s case, it was a ‘fact’ that he had immersed himself in a world of great Masters and professional fighters. It is a ‘fact’ that Lee had continuously proclaimed that “if one wants to learn to be a good fighter, one has to fight.” That means sparring full contact and/or actually going into the streets to fight. Bruce Lee had done both.
      It is a ‘fact’ that Lee had sparred full contact with some of the greatest Masters and professional fighters on the planet, and emerged victorious each and every time. If he had lost even one of these encounters, the story would have been all over the planet long ago. However, there are plenty of stories of his victories from many, many reputable firsthand sources.
      As I had told you before, believe whatever you wish, as long as it is grounded in reality and supported by fact!

      Have a good day!!

  61. ‘you disregard and try to rubbish interviews by top fighters who knew him well in order to try and make your point…ok, what about the unedited YouTube interview with Jim Kelly who openly said none of us could beat Bruce…and in my opinion he was the greatest martial artist ever… No doubt you’ll come up with some reason, no matter how crap, to rubbish what Kelly said on film…’

    It ain’t about rubbishing anyone. I just prefer not to rely on interviews, which I consider as unreliable info. Like I said earlier, if you could analyse his moves in his scenes, why bother analysing other material.

    • if you disregard the heartfelt comments from the likes of genuine world champion Jim Kelly and others…it`s absolutely pointless discussing it with you as you are totally closed-minded to the point of being rediculous and nothing anybody can say here, no matter how valid, will make the slightest difference to your way of thinking…

    • Dreamhunter: “It ain’t about rubbishing anyone. I just prefer not to rely on interviews, which I consider as unreliable info.”

      Are you serious?!
      Okay…I can give it to you that an interview of a secondhand party who was not a witness to Lee’s skills could be considered unreliable, because it’s only hearsay. Such as “So and so said he saw Bruce Lee kick a hole through a foot of concrete!”

      However, if a person had experienced sparring/training with Lee, or was there watching another spar/train with him, their testimony would be factual.

      Let me understand you correctly…if we were to read or watch an interview with a NASA Astronaut who had went into space and had witnessed a spacecraft not of this earth, you would deem that information unreliable as to the fact that alien spacecraft exist simply because it’s an interview???

  62. ‘Because the people being interviewed were there, and worked with Bruce Lee personally. That’s how we find the truth, by going to the source. How else are we going to get this information? You are the most illogical person I’ve debated in quite some time!’

    You’re getting emo now. No need to analyse unreliable info. You just analyse his moves in his scenes. No great shakes at all. Nothing much to crow about.

    • Dreamhunter: “You’re getting emo now.

      If you are eluding to the word ‘emotional’ you are wrong. Bewildered by your lack of logic and rationality would be accurate.

      No need to analyse unreliable info.

      How could you possibly know the info is ‘unreliable’?

  63. ‘How could you possibly know they were heavily edited or embellished?’
    How could you you hv been so sure they were not? Most interviews are, as a general rule.

    • Dreamhunter – you haven`t answered my question – yes, interviews can be edited, but what about the on-camera interviews with the likes of world champion Jim Kelly and the other guy…what do you say about their comments? was somebody forcing them to say Bruce was unbeatable in their opinion? …no, they said it because they knew Bruce as well as anybody could and having witnessed, first-hand, his ability, they came to their conclusions, along with countless others at that time and since then…

    • It would be accurate to say that ‘many’ interviews are edited, not ‘most’.
      Of course some are edited. In some cases they need to remove things not deemed pertinent enough for the overall story due to time or space limitations. However, ‘reputable’ magazines would shortly go out of business if they included interviews that were so heavily edited as to rewrite what the person interviewed had said for their own end, whatever it may be.

  64. Dudes. Just stop reading those heavily edited, heavily embellished interviews. Why do you need to rely on them anyway. If Bruce was that good, even post WJM let’s just say, then it would hv shown in his movies, at least to the decently trained eye of a decently trained guy.. But sadly it has not, monumentally has not, which can only mean he was not.

    • you disregard and try to rubbish interviews by top fighters who knew him well in order to try and make your point…ok, what about the unedited YouTube interview with Jim Kelly who openly said none of us could beat Bruce…and in my opinion he was the greatest martial artist ever… No doubt you’ll come up with some reason, no matter how crap, to rubbish what Kelly said on film…

    • Dreamhunter: “Dudes. Just stop reading those heavily edited, heavily embellished interviews”

      How could you possibly know they were heavily edited or embellished?

      Dreamhunter: “Why do you need to rely on them anyway?”

      Because the people being interviewed were there, and worked with Bruce Lee personally. That’s how we find the truth, by going to the source. How else are we going to get this information? You are the most illogical person I’ve debated in quite some time!

      Dreamhunter: “If Bruce was that good, even post WJM let’s just say, then it would hv shown in his movies, at least to the decently trained eye of a decently trained guy.”

      There’s the rub…it DOES show in his movies. I find it funny that some of the most accomplished and revered martial artists to ever walk the earth in Lee’s time and today, recognize Lee’s awe inspiring qualities just by watching his films. The fact that he is considered the top contender for the greatest martial artist in all of history (if such a person could exist) by the vast majority of people on this planet clearly shows you are part of a very small minority of people who feel the way you do.
      We can’t help it you don’t recognize greatness when you see it!

      Dreamhunter: “But sadly it has not, monumentally has not, which can only mean he was not.”

      Ok…as I’ve said many times before, you have a right to an opinion. However, don’t you find it odd that you don’t recognize in Bruce Lee what myriad legendary martial artists in their own right and the rest of us do?
      Heck, I’ve even posted the interviews of three of the most renown pro boxers of all time (at your request) who KNOW Lee was nothing short of phenomenal. Yet, you want us to value your opinion, when you are just some random unknown dude posting on an internet chat forum that provides no factual evidence to support your side of the argument?
      And I haven’t even touched on the opinions of some of the greatest MMA fighters today feel about him. Most illogical indeed!

      Don’t misunderstand me, I enjoy debating Bruce Lee. If there were no one on your side of the table, there could be no debate. But PLEASE support your position with facts so we can debate this intelligently. So far you have only offered opinion based purely on emotion.

  65. No,, I did not. So he didn’t break Bob Wall’s chest, cos it was only a push kick. But it was such a powerful push kick that he broke the arm of someone standing behind Bob Wall. Oh yeah. That’s all really extremely enormously real.

    Well, all his kicks in either BB, FoF, tWotD and ETD were all either push kicks and touch kicks enhanced with the aid of the camera to look like a poor imitation of of real authentic power kicks. Any kick by JCVD or Dolph Lundgren would look ten times better any day of the month.

    • Dreamhunter: “But it was such a powerful push kick that he broke the arm of someone standing behind Bob Wall. Oh yeah. That’s all really extremely enormously real”

      It was very real to Wall and the guy who got his arm broken.

      Dreamhunter: “Well, all his kicks in either BB, FoF, tWotD and ETD were all either push kicks and touch kicks enhanced with the aid of the camera to look like a poor imitation of of real authentic power kicks.”

      Poor imitation? Again, you have a right to an opinion

      Dreamhunter: “Any kick by JCVD or Dolph Lundgren would look ten times better any day of the month”

      Ok…

      • Stuart Leggat

        I read an absolutely fascinating interview with Bob Wall a couple of days ago and he explained that he was experienced and knew how to take that particular kick from Bruce, but the guy who got his arm broken was not experienced and because of this he didn`t do as he should have and ended up with a broken arm.

        I`ll try and get back to it and post the link here. What Bob says in this very long interview about Bruce and others is riveting.

  66. “1). The kick to Bob Wall’s chest in ETD where he sends Wall flying backwards into the crowd. During one of the eight or so takes that Lee had delivered this kick to Wall during that scene, the impact was so great, that it broke the arm of the guy standing directly behind Bob Wall. This is especially relevant to Lee’s power as it was only a ‘push kick’ that did the damage.
    “If Bruce had kicked me for real, it would have killed me!” – Bob Wall”

    Really? That kick wouldn’t hv killed a goose. Go on, that’s just PR and opportunistinc movie promo. Just get real, allright.

    • Please take the time to carefully read what I posted…
      Bob Wall said “If Bruce had kicked me ‘FOR REAL’ (meaning a full force running sidekick) it would have killed me!”
      As I said in my original post, it was a ‘push kick’. Bob Wall had no chest protector, so Lee couldn’t deliver a full force kick. He did the next best thing to make it look as real as possible. You’ve completely missed the point!

  67. And I hv watched ETD more than a dozen times. Good story, good directing, good choreograpy, good entertainment. As for the fighting scenes, hmmm, outstanding perhaps. For the early 70′s. But they for sure can’t match what one would see from anything with Daniel Craig, Jason Statham, or Scott Adkins in it. Or, going back a bit earlier, anything with Gary Daniels, Jet Li, JCVD or Dolph Lundgren in it. Not even the scene involving Bob Wall. All that hype about fast punches, it was all hype, all bull. If one could record any pro boxer lending his support to that, then I might listen. Until then, uh uh.

    • Dreamhunter: “As for the fighting scenes, hmmm, outstanding perhaps. For the early 70′s. But they for sure can’t match what one would see from anything with Daniel Craig, Jason Statham, or Scott Adkins in it. Or, going back a bit earlier, anything with Gary Daniels, Jet Li, JCVD or Dolph Lundgren in it.”

      Ok…you have a right to an opinion, as we all do. Your statement would have carried some weight had you started or finished your statement with ‘In my opinion’. Movie martial art sequences are an art form. Art is a purely subjective medium. What you and I might think is out of this world, another might not like at all.
      Some of my other favorite martial art movie stars are Jeff Speakman (Perfect Weapon) Ed Parker (Kill The Golden Goose) Early Steven Seagal, Mark Dacoscos, Phillip Rhee and Bong Soo Han. The problem with ANY other martial art movie star is imo, they don’t bring the same kind of ‘invincibility’ and ‘animalistic’ presence to the screen that Bruce Lee does. That’s why he is still considered the one to which everyone else is measured.

      Dreamhunter: “All that hype about fast punches, it was all hype, all bull. If one could record any pro boxer lending his support to that, then I might listen. Until then, uh uh.”

      Well, if it’s the opinions of boxers you want, here you go! This is the cream of the crop right here!!

      Sugar Ray Robinson had taken the time and effort to do his own research on Bruce Lee, and came out a true believer. This guy is one of the greatest (if not THEE greatest) boxers in the history of the sport!! He also had said that a proficient fighter recognizes a high degree of skill in others just by watching them move. He sees this in Bruce Lee.
      Here is an interview with SRL discussing Bruce Lee’s speed, power and accuracy.

      Manny Pacquiao also recognizes Lee’s greatness from doing his own research.
      http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/02/sports/02pacquiao.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

      Mike Tyson:
      http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5j4w2xHEM_yiabRqOk_yT7wUWTudg?docId=CNG.497e614aeca24eef8dd48ac8abcecab0.241&hl=en

      Bruce Lee inspires these guys because he was The Real Deal!!!

      • Bruce Lee musn’t be confused with the characters he has played in his movies.
        You’ve showed the testimonies of Sugar Ray Leonard, Manny Pacquiao and Mike Tyson about the skills of Bruce Lee as a fighter.
        Since you’ve showed us the point of view of three boxers, we can discuss about the abilities of Bruce Lee in boxing, can’t we?
        Here’s a video of Bruce Lee punching the “heavy bag” :

        We should ask SRL, Pacquiao or Tyson what would be be their opinion about Lee’s technique, it doesn’t look so impressive. He looks like a beginner with a bad footwork and bad technique.
        Bruce Lee hasn’t influenced them how to work with the heavy bag, that’s for sure. His technique shall not be a source of inspiration for those fighters.

        Manny Pacquiao stated that he had been influenced by Bruce Lee performance in Enter the Dragon. First he implied that he had never seen a real footage showing Bruce Lee fighting for real.
        Then he claimed that he had been fascinated by the rhythm, the coordination and the footwork showed by Bruce Lee.
        It’s interesting to remark that Bruce Lee copied his “footwork” from Muhammad Ali one of the greatest heavyweight boxing champion (who influenced Sugar Ray Leonard too), like Bruce recognized it in the book “The Making Of Enter The Dragon”.

        Tyson has stated in the article you’ve provided: “Bruce Lee was a street fighter, he’s got to fight to the death… I’m not going to fight Bruce Lee.”.
        Tyson was born in 1966 in New York while Bruce Lee settled down to Los Angeles like Linda Lee wrote it in her book “The Bruce Lee Story”. From 1971, he had to travel to various locations such as Bangkok, Hong Kong, Rome for the needs of his movies.
        Mike Tyson couldn’t have seen Bruce Lee involved in street fights. How could he consider Bruce as a street fighter then?
        Besides, Bruce was a shrimp compared to Tyson, one of the greatest heavyweight boxing champion very explosive and powerful! If Bruce and Tyson both in their primes would have fought each other in the street, Tyson would have pulverized him.

        SRL stated that he could judge the skills of Bruce Lee by seeing his moves. Has SRL ever seen Bruce Lee fight elsewhere than in his movies? HE stated that Bruce was deadly. He should have said Bruce looked deadly because his fights to the death are the one you can see in his movies. Let’s not forget that the fighting scenes of a movie are CHOREGRAPHED and SCRIPTED. Under those circonstances, how SRL can judge the fighting abilities of Bruce Lee only by considering his movements in choregraphed fights?

        Of course, Lee looked powerful and so accurate in his movies, but oddly he looked not so powerful and accurate when he punched the “heavy bag”.

      • re Lee on the heavy bag…i`ve watched footage of George Foreman, in his prime, hammering away at the big bag…sometimes he would look utterly clumsy and utterly vulnerable and he`d be in big trouble if he was throwing punches in this way against a real opponent, but he never did in his boxing matches…point i`m making, and also including myself, is sometimes you can punch away at a bag and look terrible cause it`s just how you feel like hitting it at that particular moment…other times, you can really concentrate and view the bag in the way you`d view a fighter in front of you and throw your punches in a controlled and defensive or offensive manner and look real good when doing it…Lee is messing around in this footage and in no way punching the bag the way he would an opponent in a real fight…i agree in this wee bit of film he looks crap, but i`ve also got enough common sense to be fully aware he could do a much more professional workout on it, just like many others involved in the fight game…

      • To Stuart.
        OK, let’s see how Bruce Lee threw a punch to somebody :
        watch?v=Xo-VIcG0Mg0 (from 02:18 for a better camera angle)

        Pretty fast, but BL launched his attack too soon and missed the target. He landed a punch when his “opponent” was out of his arm’s reach., to come into the opponent’s range with his guard wide open and his arms down. In that position, he could neither launch another attack nor protect himself.
        Fortunately for him, the “opponent” had to block but not hit back.

        I guess that SRL, Pacquiao, Tyson or Foreman have never tried this technique in a real fight. It would be indeed a knock-out!
        First, he showed bad techniques and footworks while “punching” the heavy bag.
        Then, in this demo of what he called the “unstoppable punch” (Since he missed the target, he could have called it the unreachable punch), he demonstrated his speed, but also his inability to gauge the distance and his deficience in timing, accuracy and defense.
        Have you seen another video of Bruce Lee that would show him in another light?

      • re the punches he threw that the world champion karate guy was supposed to try and block, but couldn`t after many attempts, i totally agree Bruce was unrealistically too far away and this demo was meaningless because of this…i pointed this out to guys in a different forum from here and one tried to defend Bruce for doing it, saying it would be too dangerous for him to be any closer, but that is crap…however, this does not take away from the phenomenal speed that Bruce did punch and kick at…like the formidable Mike Stone said; Bruce would have been WAY too fast for many of the judges had he chosen to fight in competitions…others (Jackie Chan and others) said it was like watching a fight in a cartoon when Bruce was really moving – just a blur and impossible to see…i`ll look out the link to Jackie saying this…but for Mike Stone to say this about Bruce speaks volumes as Mike was one of the meanest and most able world champions of all time and does not give compliments easily, if ever…

        as for punching the bag…i work out on the heavy bag on average between and hour and hour and a half and sometimes, like Bruce did in the video, i`m all over the place and other times i can be tight, controlled and co-ordinated…because i mess around from time to time, does not mean i can`t punch it properly and fairly impressively and same with Bruce, Foreman and countless others, amatur and professional…if you base your whole opinion on that one wee clip of Bruce messing about on the bag, you`re totally wrong…

      • Avenger: “OK, let’s see how Bruce Lee threw a punch to somebody :
        watch?v=Xo-VIcG0Mg0 .”

        You DO know how ironic it is that you posted this particular video? The OP posted this because Vic Moore was lying through his teeth! And the video clearly shows this!! Let me offer you a much cleaner copy so we can better see what Lee is doing – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJ1IIAQUHuE

        Avenger: “Pretty fast, but BL launched his attack too soon and missed the target.”

        How could Lee have attacked too soon? He was ‘supposed to attack when Moore got set in his stance, and was ready for Lee to attack. The video clearly shows this.

        Avenger: “He landed a punch when his “opponent” was out of his arm’s reach.”

        Out of reach/range?! Again, the video ‘clearly’ shows that had Moore been able to block the punch, he would have. Lee’s punches landed roughly 16 inches from Moore’s nose. Are you saying Moore’s arm is less than 16 inches long when fully extended? Stop the video at 038:00. These two men could easily have grabbed each others forearms at the distance they were standing from one another. PLENTY of opportunity to block if it had been possible for Moore.

        Avenger: “to come into the opponent’s range with his guard wide open and his arms down. In that position, he could neither launch another attack nor protect himself. Fortunately for him, the “opponent” had to block but not hit back.”

        Lee was in a non hostile environment. It was a demo for Christ’s sake!
        All Lee was trying to show the attending martial artists/audience that he could land a punch to his opponent each and every time without it being blocked.
        If Lee were prone to incorrect offensive/defensive procedure, we would certainly see it in the sparring demo, his students would ALL have learned incorrect defense procedure, and it would also creep into his fight choreography, because he wouldn’t know that it is wrong to launch an attack in that manner. You guys really need to think things through before you post.
        Lee chose Moore because was considered one of the fastest fighters with one of the best fight records in the business. Too bad Moore couldn’t live with the embarrassment of being bested…

        Avenger: “Then, in this demo of what he called the “unstoppable punch” (Since he missed the target, he could have called it the unreachable punch), he demonstrated his speed, but also his inability to gauge the distance and his deficience in timing, accuracy and defense.

        Let’s discuss your ‘distance’ complaint again:
        It doesn’t matter how close Lee’s punches came to his opponent, as he was not trying to make contact anyway. He just needed to be within range of Moore’s ability to block, which he was, and Moore blocked zero punches.

        Timing – Timing was spot on, as Moore was never able to block a punch.

        Accuracy – Looks to me like had Lee been closer to Moore, he would have hit him directly in the face each and every time.

        Defense – Lee didn’t have to have his guard up while delivering the punch because there was going to be no counter attack.

      • To Stuart.
        It’s hardly possible to block an attack that can’t reach you.
        Bruce would be too fast for the judges?
        Let’s see how he throws kicks :

        I think Bruce’ speed in performing the side kick wouldn’t be too fast for the judges.
        Besides, it’s easy to look fast compared to a steady person that doesn’t move or hit back.
        I’ve found out this video posted by a youtuber that describes it as the “BRUCE LEE ‘s ONLY REAL FIGHTING SPARRING FOOTAGE”

        It may be the sparring Bruce has had with Inosanto during the Long Beach Tournament of Ed Parker in 1967. It was reported in Black Belt magazine november 1967 as a demo of Gung Fu.
        Despite the poor quality of the video, we can see the moves of those men, so I doubt that the judges wouldn’t be able to see Bruce’s punches and kicks. By watching this, I even doubt that Bruce would be a threat for tournament fighters. Their footwork is basic, their guards are often down, they aren’t lightning fast, they look hesitant several times in the execution of their attacks.
        Well, it looks they aren’t used to sparr.

        You consider that the video showing Bruce Lee working out with the heavybag can’t be a decisive source to judge Bruce’ skills in punching for the reason that Bruce Lee could have messed up when the video had been recorded.
        Bruce Lee was an actor and choregrapher. He cared a lot about his image and the way people would have looked at him. As a choregrapher, he was meticulous and didn’t hesitate to shoot a scene as often as necessary until he was satisfied about the result. If Bruce Lee recorded and kept this video, that would mean he was satisfied about it. If he thought he messed up while punching the bag, he would’ve destroyed this video and make another one.

        I think your hypothesis needs some materials.
        Have you ever seen another footage showing Bruce Lee punching the bag? Otherwise, your hypothesis, though plausible at first sight, would be unfounded.

      • Hi Avenger, thank you for joining in!

        Avenger: “Since you’ve showed us the point of view of three boxers, we can discuss about the abilities of Bruce Lee in boxing, can’t we?

        First, let me clarify that I had included these three boxer’s interviews because Dreamhunter said he would only consider Lee’s speed a reality if a ‘pro boxer’ elaborated on it. Well, SRL certainly did!

        To answer your question…For me to intelligently discuss Bruce Lee’s boxing ability, I’d have to see him box. We only have the anecdotes of the boxers Lee had trained with to consider. Professional heavyweight boxer and Lee student Ed Hart claims Lee would have been a champion boxer in his weight division had he competed. Hart would know, I would not!
        If you are knowledgeable in boxing, you’ll recognize elements of boxing throughout Lee’s (post The Big Boss) films. This can also be said of the other martial arts Lee had studied such as Wing Chun, Kenpo, Preying Mantis, Hapkido, Jiu Jitsu, Tae Kwon Do, Escrima, Muay Thai, Aikido, Kali etc. etc. etc.

        There were times Lee would spar full contact using nothing but boxing as discussed by his students. He did this because he knew that boxing was effective in the streets. However, he also knew that boxing has severe limitations.
        offensively & defensively, it only concerns the upper body, which leaves the rest of the body vulnerable. Which is why a good street fighter will know how to box, as well as kick and grapple.

        Avenger: “Here’s a video of Bruce Lee punching the “heavy bag”

        And I’m sure what you came away with is poor bag technique. Which would be all well and good if the video was an example of Bruce Lee exhibiting his boxing skill! If Lee had only studied boxing during his lifetime, I’d be right there with you thinking “What The F***!
        However, in most other striking arts, the practitioner is taught to punch or kick ‘through’ the bag. Which is why you see so many board and brick demos in say, Kung Fu & Karate. You’ll never see a boxer do a power break. At least I haven’t.

        In the video, Lee is doing just that, attempting to punch through the bag it appears. He is also punching continuously in a straight rhythmic pattern (the antithesis of JKD interestingly) keeping the bag off vertical as much as possible. This is as much a muscle & cardio conditioning exercise as a Wing Chun punching drill. Try this yourself on a 100 pound bag, and you’ll feel it. At any rate, we’re looking at merely a couple of minutes of Lee hitting a heavybag with Kung Fu punches nothing more than that! Don’t get all worked up about it.
        In any case, I can safely assume that if propositioned to take those series of punches to your body exactly the way Lee hit the heavybag, you would decline!

        Avenger: “It’s interesting to remark that Bruce Lee copied his “footwork” from Muhammad Ali one of the greatest heavyweight boxing champion.”

        Absolutely! Ali was Lee’s favorite boxer!!
        Bruce Lee was an accomplished dancer (a Cha Cha champion), so he knew the importance of mobility, and being light on one’s feet. Lee loved the way Ali moved, and modeled his footwork in the fight against Norris in WOTD on Ali’s movements. That’s the way things work. Ideas and methodologies get passed on from person to person & generation to generation until something better comes along.

        Avenger: “Mike Tyson couldn’t have seen Bruce Lee involved in street fights. How could he consider Bruce as a street fighter then?”

        Historical fact. It is documented in Hong Kong police records that Lee was always getting into fights. Lee had a rap sheet a mile long! That’s the reason his family sent him to America. To escape that lifestyle, and certainly save him from a prison sentence!
        On top of this, there were many witnesses to the street encounters Lee was involved in. Some witnesses still alive today. Secondly, Tyson did what the rest of us do when we want to learn about something…He did his homework.

        Avenger: “Besides, Bruce was a shrimp compared to Tyson, one of the greatest heavyweight boxing champion very explosive and powerful! If Bruce and Tyson both in their primes would have fought each other in the street, Tyson would have pulverized him.”

        I have to laugh when anyone says that a larger man will always beat a smaller man. Do you have any idea how many small men have beaten or killed much larger men throughout history with just their bare hands? While I hate to use this example, as I’m vehemently opposed to any kind of animal fighting for sport & profit, Pitbulls kill much, much larger dogs routinely. That is why these parasites that stage dog fighting events most often choose pitbulls. If size were the determining factor, everyone would choose a St. Bernard.
        From what I’ve read from fighters that I greatly admire who had gone full contact with Lee, Bruce Lee was so fast, powerful, deceptive and evasive, They would put their money on him every single time against anyone!

        Mike Tyson said it best himself, he wouldn’t fight Bruce Lee! Lee has myriad more weapons than Tyson, was incredibly powerful and his kicks were as fast as Tyson’s hands. Tyson being a boxer, is reflex conditioned to only attacking and defending the upper body, whereas Bruce Lee attacked and defended the entire body. I can tell you one thing, there is no way in hell Lee would stand there and trade punches with Tyson. It’s safe to say he would employ the old adage “never box a boxer, and never grapple a grappler”.

        Avenger: “SRL stated that he could judge the skills of Bruce Lee by seeing his moves. Has SRL ever seen Bruce Lee fight elsewhere than in his movies?”

        I don’t know, you’d have to ask him.

        Avenger: “HE stated that Bruce was deadly. He should have said Bruce looked deadly because his fights to the death are the one you can see in his movies.”

        He said that Bruce was deadly because he has done research. He read what the professional fighters who were international champions had said about their experiences with Lee, and came away awestruck. There is a very sizeable list of these men, and many of them were street fighters before taking up martial arts as a profession. If anyone knows what makes a great fighter, these guys do!

        Avenger: “Under those circonstances, how SRL can judge the fighting abilities of Bruce Lee only by considering his movements in choregraphed fights?”

        SRL ISN’T judging Lee’s abilities based soley on his films. He merely said you can tell Lee was a great fighter just by the way he moved on film. He had also read and considered what other champions who had trained with Lee personaly had to say. SRL also took into consideration the street effectiveness of the techniques used in the choreography (very simple and direct) and more importantly, the way in which they were executed. Those of us who have experience in street combat, empirically know what techniques will work and what doesn’t. If one is a skilled fighter, one can see skill (or lack thereof) in another, just by watching him/her move. For instance, one would have to be a complete idiot to assume a street fight would go down the way Jackie Chan choreographs his fights.

        Avenger: “Of course, Lee looked powerful and so accurate in his movies, but oddly he looked not so powerful and accurate when he punched the “heavy bag”.”

        Well again, you are ignorant to what Lee was doing on the heavy bag, assuming he would ‘always’ train on it like a boxer would is completely preposterous. Bruce Lee’s roots were in Wing Chun Kung Fu, and he is executing punches from that system.
        Example: put Shotokan, Kenpo and Shorin Ryu Karate stylists on a heavy bag, ask them to train in the types of punches they use in their systems and you would see variations in the forms of training from each. As a reverse punch is found in all three of these arts, one could assume that at some point in their bag workouts, they would train that punch. NONE of it would look anything like a boxers bag workout. Interestingly, I doubt any one person who has bitched about Lee’s bag training, would say anything derogatory about the way the aforementioned stylists would train on a heavybag. You guys are filled with so much un-warranted contempt for Bruce Lee, you can’t see the forest for the trees.

  68. Bruce was a human. Stupid thing to say, considering how he met his end, and how early. But someone needed to say it. Not only once, but time and time again. So wise up, and stop thinkin and saying that he was a superhuman. He might have been an outstanding athlete, and even that might still be debatable to some. But a superathlete certainly he was not.

    • Dreamhunter: “@Nebula One: Not, it’s not about hate. It’s about the moral responsibility one must carry, to debunk what needs to be debunked.”

      That’s fine with me. I’ve been debunking Bruce Lee myths for a very, very long time; i.e. ‘Bruce Lee once ripped a man’s heart out and showed it to him before he hit the ground!’
      Knowing the truth about Bruce Lee or anyone else is not only critical if one is to live in the real world, but it’s also much more fascinating in most cases BECAUSE it’s the truth!
      The only problem I can see from your statement is that YOU are the one who wants to do the debunking, when you bring no facts to the table support your position. If it is your desire to be the ‘Bruce Lee morality police’, then you had better be damn sure of what you are talking about. You just don’t, I’m sorry…

      Dreamhunter: “And kicking someone’s faster than a jab is no big deal at all. Both my former TKD instructors, both of them 3rd dan black belt, coukld do that without breaking sweat.”

      You see, it’s statements like these that make you look foolish. Do you have any idea how many people have said almost the exact same thing to me on internet chat forums in the past? Hundreds! Everybody’s instructor can do it without breaking a sweat. Good god, you guys are everywhere!!!

      Dreamhunter: ” It’s all bout practice and dedication, and application and persistence. While a bit of good genetics won’t do any harm too.”

      Finally, something we can agree upon…

      Dreamhunter: “Bruce was a human. Stupid thing to say, considering how he met his end, and how early. But someone needed to say it. Not only once, but time and time again. So wise up, and stop thinkin and saying that he was a superhuman.”

      Certainly he was human. No one is arguing this fact with you. Do I think he was superhuman? Possibly. Do I say he was superhuman? Never, even though he might have been. It’s not unrealistic to consider the possibility. You said it yourself. One can be heads and shoulders above everyone else in his/her respective field, if one works hard enough to achieve it. There is no question as to hard Bruce Lee worked at his craft!

      Have you ever watched Stan Lee’s Superhumans? There are some absolutely amazing people all over the world that can do things the rest of us can’t…Bruce Lee included. One such person profiled on Stan lee’s program was distance runner Dean Karnazes.
      Some of Karnazes feats are:
      1). Ran 350 miles (560 km) in 80 hours and 44 minutes without sleep in 2005.
      2). Single-handedly completed “The Relay”, a 199-mile (320 km) run from Calistoga to Santa Cruz, eleven times.
      3). Ran a marathon to the South Pole in −13 °F (−25 °C) temperatures without snowshoes in 2002.
      4). Ran 50 marathons in all 50 states in 50 consecutive days in 2006.
      5). Ran 3,000 miles (4,800 km) across the United States from Disneyland to New York City in 75 days, running 40 to 50 miles per day, in 2011.

      If that isn’t superhuman I don’t know what is! Much more impressive than anything Bruce Lee has done imo.
      The great thing about the show is that they scientifically test these people (in as much as they can within the time restraints and areas traveled to), and have debunked a few ‘superhumans. One case was a DIm Mak practitioner Tom Cameron, who did quite well in knocking out his own students with his incredible powers, but when he tried on anyone else, he failed. I had met a couple of these Dim Mak guys many years ago, and they failed to do anything to me. It’s all BS.
      Bruce Lee would have called them on it too. He hated martial art charlatans.

      Dreamhunter: “He might have been an outstanding athlete, and even that might still be debatable to some. But a superathlete certainly he was not.”

      How on earth would you know? Other super athletes like Pan American Gold Medal winner Hayward Nishioka surely thought so, as did/does Kareem Abdul Jabaar and even Sugar Ray Leonard. You have never met Bruce Lee, or anyone associated with him. You clearly haven’t done any research on the man. So I ask again, how would you know?

      Please don’t misunderstand me, I’m not trying to be disrespectful. I just find it ironic that you complain about the lack of scientific evidence and/or facts surrounding the legacy of Bruce Lee, yet you are just as guilty as Lee fanatics who make wild claims, as you offer no facts to support your argument. At least people such as myself are finding interviews and quotes coming directly from those who had trained with Bruce Lee. I could even see your argument if all of the MA practitioners who heralded Lee as extraordinary were unknowns. The reality is just the opposite. Most of these guys were/are legends in their own right. The cream of the crop. Haven’t you ever wondered why after all these years, and the thousands of people who had witnessed Lee’s skill in person, not ONE of them ever said Lee was nothing special or even just ‘pretty good’ at anything?
      Lastly, I just have to ask where you get your information on Bruce Lee, as you have stated so many untruths about the man?

  69. @Nuc: If one had fast reflexes, one wouldmake a fast sprinter too. At least over 35 metres, if not 100 metres. If one could run fast, one would have quick reflexes too. One is using the same fast-twitch muscle fibres, after all. If one could kick fast, then one could sprint fast too.

    @Nebula One: Not, it’s not about hate. It’s about the moral responsibility one must carry, to debunk what needs to be debunked. And kicking someone’s faster than a jab is no big deal at all. Both my former TKD instructors, both of them 3rd dan black belt, coukld do that without breaking sweat. It’s all bout practice and dedication, and application and persistence. While a bit of good genetics won’t do any harm too.

  70. And if one desires to make one’s own direct personal analysis, one could gather all of BL’s movie videotapes or CD’s, then diligently and studiously watch them one by one. Pick out any scene showing Bruce executing one credible looking kick that would hv been packed with real power. No. One would not find one. Simply because Bruce does not have one in his repertoire. As for his hand, arm and elbow moves, and his weapons displays, including his nunchaku magic show, there were thousands of others who could do the same in that time. And if he was really as fast as he has often been made out to be, such claims no doubt having been encouraged by him also as a marketing tool, he would have won the Olympics gold in the 100 metres sprint no sweat. others who could do the same in that time.

    • The problem with what you’re saying is, Bruce Lee wasn’t considered fast in his brute speed like sprinting, he was considered fast for his reflexes. That is, he could do complex actions in quick times, e.g. take and switch a coin in your hand before you could close it.

      • No doubt Lee’s reflexes were incredibly fast! However, his offensive speed was breathtaking as well. In the opening sequence with Bob Wall in ETD, He delivers two incredibly fast punches to Wall’s head. Bear in mind that not only did they have to ask Bruce to slow down his punches so they could be seen, they also had to increase the frame rate to 32fps (movies are normally shot at 24fps) to capture the punch with as little blur as possible. He is also ‘hopping’ during this punch to bridge the gap. I’ve never seen another human being do that technique anywhere near Lee’s speed. Myself included, and I’ve been a serious practitioner for over forty years.

        The kicks to Wall’s lead hand in WOTD was done precisely the same way. By increasing the frame rate. Lee’s front snap kicks were as fast as a pro boxer’s jabs.

      • “You have to remember this about Bruce…he could come in and not even know what you know, watch you do a move he had no idea of doing before, come out and look just as good as you the first time out. And even better than you the second time around! That was his forte.”

        - GrandMaster Ed Parker

    • Dreamhunter: “Pick out any scene showing Bruce executing one credible looking kick that would hv been packed with real power. No. One would not find one. Simply because Bruce does not have one in his repertoire.”

      Seriously? First of all, you have to be a seasoned martial artists to be able to identify techniques in movies that would be useful in the street. It sounds to me like you are either an armchair martial artist who has never thrown a real kick or punch in his entire life, or very green at best. As I said, it’s a good idea to do your research before you make profound claims such as these on a chat forum. Do you not wish to be viewed as credible in these discussions? All you would (literally) have to do is read what those who have been on the receiving end of a punch or kick from Bruce Lee had said, and you would have the answer right there.

      I can give you many examples of powerful kicks that Lee has delivered in his films:
      1). The kick to Bob Wall’s chest in ETD where he sends Wall flying backwards into the crowd. During one of the eight or so takes that Lee had delivered this kick to Wall during that scene, the impact was so great, that it broke the arm of the guy standing directly behind Bob Wall. This is especially relevant to Lee’s power as it was only a ‘push kick’ that did the damage.
      “If Bruce had kicked me for real, it would have killed me!” – Bob Wall
      2). The round kick to the head of Bob Wall that ended the fight in ETD. Bruce put padding on the top (instep) of his right shoe so he could kick Wall in the head for real.
      Had he kicked Wall with any real force, it would have broke his neck. Bob Wall apparently didn’t enjoy that kick very much either!
      3). The two front snap kicks to Bob Walls lead hand in WOTD were nearly full force. Wall complained that this hurt immensely! Of course, Bob wall was more than happy to do these types of things for real because as he said “You can see on screen that it was real. No one can mistake it for being fake like other martial art films.”
      4). The crescent kick delivered to ‘dummy’ Mr. Han in ETD. That was full force. And they used a dummy so he could deliver it full force. No one in their right mind would want to be on the receiving end of that kick!!

      Now there is four examples right there. I could list many more, but I think I’ve made my point. Bruce liked to use as much realism as possible in his films.

      Dreamhunter: “As for his hand, arm and elbow moves, and his weapons displays, including his nunchaku magic show, there were thousands of others who could do the same in that time.”

      Well, I don’t know about ‘thousands’ of others, but certainly there was no technique Lee did another human being couldn’t do (that goes for anybody). Unless one has no hands, arms or elbows!
      In fact, Dan Inosanto was/is considerably more capable with the nunchuks than Bruce was as far as total aggregate combinations are concerned. It’s no wonder, as he taught Bruce Lee how to use the weapon.
      You have to understand that nunchuks and the like, were strictly movie props for Lee. That certainly doesn’t mean that he WASN’T extremely proficient with the weapon! It just means that he spent much, much more time training the natural weapons of the body. After all, nunchuks are illegal in many parts of the world. Most of us don’t walk around with them.

      Dreamhunter: “And if he was really as fast as he has often been made out to be, such claims no doubt having been encouraged by him also as a marketing tool,”

      Well of COURSE he wouldn’t deny that he was incredibly fast. He was!!!
      Bruce never minded the attention he got for his skills. Hell, he DESERVED the attention, as he really was what many people say…the real deal!
      When you have professional fighters who strike as fast as Jim Kelly did in his prime, blown away by Lee’s speed, you know that Bruce Lee must have been extraordinary!

      Dreamhunter: “he would have won the Olympics gold in the 100 metres sprint no sweat. others who could do the same in that time.

      Bruce Lee did run/sprint for cardio reasons, but I’m positive that he never considered himself Olympic material as far as running/sprinting goes. Of course, that was never one of his goals was it?

      The bottom line is again, there were many, many world class martial artists who knew and trained with Bruce Lee personally. THEY know the truth about his skill. That’s why I’m so amused when I see people such as yourself (who never even met Bruce Lee) come onto chat forums and start spewing garbage. You guys never bring any actual facts to the table. Just hatred and contempt. It does puzzle me however as to why this is so? No single person has done more to bring worldwide attention to not only the martial arts, but training to fight as realistic as possible.

      You guys keep talking about fight records. In the ring it’s nice and safe. Many rules and referees. That’s why there are so very few real casualties in the history of boxing and full contact martial arts. On the streets, it doesn’t matter if you are 130 pounds or 330 pounds. You simply have an ‘anything goes’ brawl between two people. The better fighter emerges victorious. If you are a 130 pound man fighting a 330 pound man, you had better be prepared for it! Because if you’re not, you will most certainly lose and possibly lose your life. That was Bruce Lee’s entire reason for training like a madman each and every day of his (post WJM fight), whereas pro fighters only train ‘for’ an upcoming fight. Lee was concerned with one day running into a 6’7″ 350 pound version of himself. Now THAT would be scary!!!

  71. Wakey, wakey. Whatever ya’ll say, whatever Bruce’s friends all say, whatever his former training partners say, it can’t count as any more than speculation. In the field of investigation, whether scientific or criminal investigation, anything not accompanied by cold hard evidence is hearsay. That’s all there is to it now.

    If one wants to make one’s own own personal analuysis,,

    • Dreamhunter: “In the field of investigation, whether scientific or criminal investigation, anything not accompanied by cold hard evidence is hearsay”

      You couldn’t be more incorrect. The professional fighters that Lee had amazed so profoundly would be considered ‘expert witnesses’ in a court of law. They had witnessed the event(s) firsthand with their own two eyes, and rank among the most elite practitioners in their field(s).
      You are confused as to the definition of hearsay.
      A hearsay witness is one who testifies what SOMEONE ELSE said or wrote.

      Dreamhunter: “whatever Bruce’s friends all say, whatever his former training partners say, it can’t count as any more than speculation.

      Again, you misunderstand the word ‘speculation’, which is to conclude or suppose from grounds or evidence INSUFFICIENT to ensure reliability.
      Or to indulge in conjectural thought.
      Do you honestly think a judge or jury would consider testimony from the myriad world class professional fighters and martial art Masters who had sung Lee’s praises to be insufficient evidence in a court of law? If you think so, you’re the one who needs to wakey wakey…

  72. Dudes. It was not even the early 70s. It was the late late 60s. Any Asian geezer with half a decent kick could whup any western guy 6 inches taller and 35 lb heavier so easily that time. Cos the latter then knew nothing, absolutely nothing at all, about systematic fighting. Other than a rarefied few who might hv had some experience in western boxing.

    • That’s fine…we’re not necessarily talking about a skilled fighter taking on bigger American non skilled fighters. Regarding Lee’s combat abilities, we have to look to those who had trained with him for the truth. Someone who was there at the time and had witnessed and experienced it first hand.
      Since people like yourself (Dreamhunter), only look to fight records to judge one’s skill level, we now have to look into what the professional fighters who knew and trained with Bruce Lee have said, as Lee had no fight record.
      There are a number of them on the same skill level as Chuck Norris and Joe Lewis who had sparred full contact with Bruce Lee (something that was unheard of of the time in the United States) and came away believing that he was unbeatable. While I personally believe such a person does not exist, it certainly was the opinion of many great champions that Lee’s skill set was ‘otherworldly’. I’ve already posted the video of Pro Karate Champion Jim Kelly, and I think someone posted the comments of other pro MA fighters concerning their opinion of Bruce Lee. After Lee had passed, there was a code of silence so to speak among some of the MA champions who did not want Lee’s skill level to be known or acknowledged. Jim Kelly also talks about this in interviews. While it is only the opinion of these great champions, it does give us a rare glimpse into a more accurate truth regarding Bruce Lee’s fighting ability.

      • Is there any link to the opinion of Mike Stone on Bruce?

      • Mike Stone has given VERY few interviews in his lifetime, so it’s hard to nail down many direct quotes from him. One statement he had made in Blackbelt magazine many years back was: “For his size and weight, Bruce was one of the strongest people – pound for pound – I have ever met.
        I think he could have beaten a lot of people much heavier and much stronger than he was. He would have done extremely well in competition; if anything, he would have been much too fast for a lot of the officials.”

        Some quotes from other professional champions:

        “I have met Mr Lee and have had the privilege to work out with him several times. Although I have won 42 karate tournaments, I do not consider myself a match for him. His speed surpasses most of the black belts I know.”
        –Ernest Lieb

        “I have never met anybody with more ability in fighting and knowledge than Mr Lee himself.” – Fred Wren

        “I have never seen anyone like Bruce Lee. I have met and sparred with several karate men, but Bruce has been the only one who has baffled me completely. I am completely in awe when I fight with him.”–Louis Delgado

        “Bruce Lee was a martial arts genius” –Don “The Dragon” Wilson.

        “Bruce Lee had lightning reflexes and he could move and thing and just pick his opponents apart. In a sense, my left jab comes from him. After watching Lee, I became more precise about landing my jabs on an opponents nose or between his eyes” –Sugar Ray Leonard.

    • Here is an exerpt of an interview from Blackbelt Magazine with Professional Karate champion Jim Kelly discussing the ‘code of silence’ surrounding the TRUE nature of Bruce Lee’s combat skill.

      Blackbelt – What did you think of Lee’s martial arts skills?

      KELLY: There’s a lot of stuff that people aren’t saying about Bruce and his abilities. It’s like a code of silence, and people aren’t saying how good he really was because they’re protecting their friends and their own reputations and tremendous egos. On film, as a martial artist, Bruce was the greatest. He had soul. He had rhythm. He had style. And there’s not a martial artist today who’s doing films that has any of that. I’m not saying they’re no good, I’m just saying that Bruce was incredible. There may never be another martial arts film star who will be equal to Bruce.

      BB: What was your impression of Lee’s martial skill outside of film?

      KELLY: When people ask me “Who was the greatest tournament fighter ever?” I would love to say Bruce Lee, but I can’t, because he never fought in tournaments or for competition. Bruce did spar, in practice, but when you get in competition, you may not be the same guy. There are some guys who are great in practice, but when someone says “Play ball!” they’re not that good. Then there are guys who are better in competition than in practice. I’m that kind of guy. In practice I fool around and don’t really concentrate as much as I should. But if there’s money or a trophy on the line, if it’s the real deal, then I’m on my game. But I would bet my life that Bruce would have done very, very well in tournament competition. As a matter of fact, I doubt there was anyone in the world who could have beaten him!

      • Jim Kelly is a rarity amongst professional fighting champions…he does not let his ego get int he way of giving an absolutely honest appraisal of another martial artist`s ability. It`s very easy to understand why many a proud champion – and I`m thinking of Chuck Norris, Mike Stone, Joe Lewis etc – would be way too proud, with accompanying outrageously big egos, to admit this wee guy, who never competed in the way they did, could destroy them in a no-holds barred fight and, like Jim freely admitted, would more than likely also beat them all in the more restricted world of professional competition fighting….like he also said in that recent youtube video; “None of us could beat Bruce…I believe he was the greatest martial artist of all time”. Very well done, Mr. Kelly, for your honest opinion as it genuinely helps people like us to get a much better idea of what Bruce could actually do for real.

  73. Okey, so I partially agree with what OP sed. 1 year after bruce lee came to US he were still without friends and socially awkward. He meet one guy, first one of his american friends and this guy (Jesse Glover) was in friends with bruce until he died. He wrote a book about their relationships and about bruce. The thing with bruce is, when he came to US he had only one dream, to become best wing chun’er in the world. In Hong Kong, bruce was considered to have above average physical built, so what he lacked in form he could compensate with his strength. When he was in US he realized opponents sometimes come very big, and wing chun is not best approach to take down that kind of enemies. (I must note that bruce was unable to even his leg above his head at this time. He had almost no kicking at all, except those wc kicks). So he started to experiment with different techniques from different martial arts while keeping wing chun as core/fundament. First ones was other stiles of kung fu, muay thai, judo and boxing. He also started to develop his legs. At this point his dream changed to becoming best kung fu guy in the world. (Note, that “kung fu” in Hong Kong meant simply “martial art”. Anything could be kung fu. Kickboxing, judo, etc) So in modern sense of this word, bruce decided to become best martial artist in the world. When he first started to teach his friend Jesse Glover (when bruce had only learned wing chun,1 year after arrival in US) he made it a rule that noone can watch them practice. He was very careful not to show others his techniques. When Jesse asked him why bruce doesnt keep secrets from him, but keeps them from others bruce replied something that went like this “in Hong Kong we have saying- Dont give a knife in hands, which can later cut your throat with it” He went on to explain, that in anciet times, kung fu masters always kept something to themselfs, few special techniques, or few special approach, so if challenged by one of his students, he would have advantage. He also explained that there were counter measures against challengers from outside clan. If challengers challenged master, he first had to go true students before he could face master. This gave masters advantage, because they could study their potential opponent and see what they will be facing. This gives you understanding of bruces mentality. He wanted to be best fighter in the world. He spend all his free time chasing this goal. He never wanted to be movie star. When he was not yet famous, he wrote his first book ABOUT kung fu. Simple introductions without any teachings on how to practice the art. He didnt even wanted to write that book. He only did it for money. Bruce liked money a lot. They always got into verbal fights with his best friend over topic whether or not person needs money to be happy. Bruce was strong believer that you did. Same applies with movies. Bruce never wanted to be famous movie star. He just needed the money. And he was extremely careful not to reveal his teachings to general population, because then it would be harder for him to reach his dream. Even Jesse believes, bruce kept most of his secrets from him. What you see in movies is bullshit, because bruce would never reveal his secrets to the world. He told Jesse that he understands that people dont want to see kick to the knee in movies, they want to see something they cant do! Bruce was also a user. He used people for his training benefit (drive to the training ground, hold mitts etc) but Jesse also noted that bruce always gave back and usually what he gave back was more valuable that what he took. Only after year, bruce allowed Jesse to take one of his friends to training, because bruce knew Jesse and his friends cant be his competitors and will oppose no danger if they were to see how he trains/fights. This is main reason why you dont see video footages with bruce actually fighting. He was too smart to not let fighters of his own level to see his techniques. When he later opened a martial arts school, it was also just for the money. Bruce started to keep A LOT of secrets from his students, while sharing them with his friend Jesse. Jesse didnt like that bruce is holding back knowledge from his own students and only teaching them basics, so he left official trainings lessons. They were training together for over 4 years at this moment. Bruce was somewhere of 23. They still were friends and they still had few occasional unofficial training sessions together, but he didnt attend his school anymore. Bruce was provoked to prove and reveal his true skills to a large group of people only once. This was the time when he fought Gary Elms, In hong kong 1958 a teenage bruce entered amateur boxing tournament, knocked out first three opponents in first round and last opponent Gary Elms in third round. Must note that Gary Elms was 3 times champion. But even then bruce lee was holding back not to show his best techniques to others and also must note that at that time he only knew wing chun and few other styles.

    In short, bruce dream was to become best martial artist in the world. He did everything to reach this goal. All his free time and money went on this dream. His books and movies was nothing more than tools for him to raise money to reach his dream. He tested himself in private fights. He believed that if he looses a fight, he can later analyze it, pinpoint the reason why he lost and train himself not to make that mistake again. So while he did fight quiet often, it was never in front of large crowd or video cameras. Or else some good fighters would study him and copy his moves and in turn becoming better fighters and making it harder for bruce to win them. Jesse told that Tao of Jeet Kune do is a joke. Bruce had few personal notes, from his teenage and later days which were put together in book by his wife, who knew almost nothing about martial arts. In later years bruce had discarded many of those notes as being impractical since most of them were written in time when he only started exploring other styles. Jesse told bruce would never allowed for something like that book to be published. Bruce believed himself that he is NOT best fighter in the world and he claimed to believe that there are several people standing in same level as he.

  74. Bruce Lee’s Jeet Kune Do – practical Combat For Any Situation

    Joe Lewis said that Bruce Lee helped him better understand how to conceptualize the facets of fighting, including ring strategy. “Without strategy, a fighter has no way to anchor his concentration of focus and has nothing on which to base [the] timing [of] his trigger squeeze,” Joe Lewis said. “He’s left without any idea as to how he might best set up his opponent or what tactics would work best against him.”

    To clarify, he offered an example: “Anyone fighting a taller opponent must know three basics tactics: how to move on the outside; how to fight him from the pocket; and how to line him up, walk him to the ropes and turn him. I work a great deal [on] teaching the cardinal rules of strategy that I learned over many years. Movement and turning—a couple of things I learned from Bruce—are some of the best tricks I’ve used in competition.”

    Joe Lewis was the first to teach such principles to sport-karate competitors. It all started when other fighters began ridiculing Joe Lewis for listing Bruce Lee, whom they identified as merely a kung fu practitioner, as his teacher.

    Rewind to 1967. Joe Lewis had just signed on as an official student of Bruce Lee’s, and Bruce Lee was ringside at an exhibition match pitting Joe Lewis against top-rated Japanese stylist Tonny Tulleners. “Bruce sat in the front row behind my corner and coached me between rounds,” Joe Lewis said. “That night, I used a double side kick that Bruce and I had drilled on.”

    After Joe Lewis won, Bruce Lee said, “That’s the broken-rhythm principle I taught you.” The fighter went on to win the internationals and the Jhoon Rhee Nationals that year.

    By the end of 1968, Joe Lewis had mastered the principles of jeet kune do as they applied to sport fighting. At the U.S. Karate Championships in Dallas, Joe Lewis, undefeated in his 10 most recent title fights, prepared to enter the ring. To quell the complaints he often heard about the “kung fu guy” who never competed, Joe Lewis told the promoter that he wanted to give a JKD seminar before the bout so his opponents would know why he was sold on Bruce Lee. Joe Lewis then demonstrated the principle of independent motion and the five angles of attack.

    “I taught jeet kune do principles, either directly or through others, to many of the top fighters from the ’60s and ’70s,” Joe Lewis said. “Steve ‘Nasty’ Anderson came from our system. Before he started cleaning house with all the top black belts, he’d won 70 straight brown-belt titles. We knew before we made him a black belt that he was going to be great. He was a master of timing and distancing, two key principles which Bruce encouraged me to perfect.”

    Joe Lewis’ Favorite Jeet Kune Do Technique

    The JKD principles he learned from Bruce Lee still work in the ring, Joe Lewis said. “The problem today is that many instructors never field-test the material they teach. Most of what’s being taught was created on someone’s desktop or in someone’s mind but was never tested. I was Bruce Lee’s test tube. In 1968, during the peak of our training relationship, I won 11 straight championships.”

    Joe Lewis contends that the theories Bruce Lee advocated, including putting one’s power side forward, worked for all three original full-contact champs: Jeff Smith, Bill Wallace and himself. “I won my first kickboxing fight using Bruce Lee’s JKD material with my power side forward,” Joe Lewis said. “Jeff and Bill are both left-handed and based their entire fighting careers on putting their power side—their left side—forward.”

    One jeet kune do technique remains Joe Lewis’ favorite: the lead-hand punch. He trained intensively with Bruce Lee for nine months to polish it before he tried it in competition. Back in the 1960s, the lead hand was seldom used in karate competition because it was thought to have insufficient power to effect a “killing blow.” Joe Lewis’ secret entailed retracting his hand as though he was doing a backfist, which prompted referees to label it a back-knuckle strike. “Actually, it’s more like a fencing thrust using the fist,” Joe Lewis said.

    Joe Lewis contends that the lead-hand strike, done the way Bruce Lee intended it, is a viable technique for the 21st century, whether you’re sparring in a ring, battling in a cage or defending your life on the street. Like most of the moves Bruce Lee taught, it can give you the edge you need to win no matter where you fight.

    • what a great wee bit if reading this was…to read how Bruce actually trained a guy who became a legendary word champion…again, it takes your breath away to know that even Joe at his absolute peak, could not live with Bruce, just like all the other extremely hard and able fighters of that time…what`s more, Joe was a big heavyweight and Bruce was a small lightweight and wiry man…the mind boggles at trying to comprehend just how awesomely special he was, to overcome the physical differences which allowed a wee lightweight of a man to be able to destroy the best of the big heavies – and like one big heavy with a proven Bad Man reputation says in his video here; “We didn`t have a chance against Bruce”

      • Stuart…unfortunately, there are many, many people with the mindset of Al Alvir & Dreamhunter who post about Bruce Lee, when they know little to nothing about him. Check out the Bruce Lee page on the IMDB.
        It can be quite hilarious at times. The ONLY thing anyone can say to the negative (in many people’s eyes anyway), is that Bruce Lee had no ‘official’ fight record. Aside from that, they have virtually nothing else that can detract from Bruce Lee as a fighter, and as a martial artist.
        The ironic thing is, they could easily find out the truth just by doing a little research. I wouldn’t dream of entering a conversation about a topic I know little to nothing about, unless I was asking questions Funny how lazy some people can be!

      • Fight records mean nothing – let me explain…my buddy, Bill Little, was a 3- times world-champion kickboxer back in the late `80s (watch some of his fights at youtube)…he was a knockout specialist and being a world champion, superb at what he did.

        However, his teacher, like Bruce, had no track record of ring fighting, just teaching and his name was Tommy Morris from Glasgow (now 8th Dan and over 80 years old and still touring the world teaching – watch him at youtube)….Bill will readily tell you, even tho he was a 3-times world- champion, Tommy would, literally, kill him in a fight – and no contest.

        Some people think – and sometimes understandably – that a proven champion in the ring can beat some guy who teaches in some club and has rarely been in a real bust-up, but nothing could be further from the truth, surprisingly.

  75. Cameron, dude. What’s so special about whuppin some mindless relatively untrained nutcase who walked up to ya and challenged ya to a fight? Great multitudes of guys on earth could do that, it aint anythin to shout about at all.

    • Dreamhunter…what makes you think that the guy was a mindless, relatively untrained nutcase? The vast majority of the 500+ extras on the set were Triad gang members. They are USED to fighting/killing, and are quite good at it. It is a way of life for them. In fact, martial art is a way of life for them,
      I suggest you do some research on these guys if you aren’t familiar with them.

      Bob Wall: “The main incident was a guy on the wall speaking in cantonese who was basically saying ‘you’re not a martial artist, you’re just an actor” and Bruce said “oh really. Come on down and show me what you got” and the guy goes down there and Bruce was just playing around with him and the guy was trying to take his head off and Bruce realized, (I know Bruce real well), I saw his whole face change cause this guy was much bigger than Bruce and very fast, and he was really trying to hurt Bruce. So, Bruce just then kicks the **** out of him, rammed him to the wall, arm-locked him, knee trapped him and smacked him 3 or 4 times on the face, and the guy just started going ‘I quit, I quit, I quit’ Bruce smacked him a few more times. The guy couldn’t move at all. And then Bruce told him ‘Not bad for an actor’. And the guy then bowed to him.
      Bruce had class. He showed the guy the flaw in his technique, where to improve it, and let him back on the wall. But he also let him know in no uncertain terms that they were totally mismatched. You see Bruce was a world class martial artist and there are a lot of Black Belts walking around thinking there’s no difference between a world class and a black belt. But there is a big difference. Bruce was the real deal!”

      • Joe Lewis said that Bruce Lee helped him better understand how to conceptualize the facets of fighting, including ring strategy. “Without strategy, a fighter has no way to anchor his concentration of focus and has nothing on which to base [the] timing [of] his trigger squeeze,” Joe Lewis said. “He’s left without any idea as to how he might best set up his opponent or what tactics would work best against him.”

        To clarify, he offered an example: “Anyone fighting a taller opponent must know three basics tactics: how to move on the outside; how to fight him from the pocket; and how to line him up, walk him to the ropes and turn him. I work a great deal [on] teaching the cardinal rules of strategy that I learned over many years. Movement and turning—a couple of things I learned from Bruce—are some of the best tricks I’ve used in competition.”

        Joe Lewis was the first to teach such principles to sport-karate competitors. It all started when other fighters began ridiculing Joe Lewis for listing Bruce Lee, whom they identified as merely a kung fu practitioner, as his teacher.

        Rewind to 1967. Joe Lewis had just signed on as an official student of Bruce Lee’s, and Bruce Lee was ringside at an exhibition match pitting Joe Lewis against top-rated Japanese stylist Tonny Tulleners. “Bruce sat in the front row behind my corner and coached me between rounds,” Joe Lewis said. “That night, I used a double side kick that Bruce and I had drilled on.”

        After Joe Lewis won, Bruce Lee said, “That’s the broken-rhythm principle I taught you.” The fighter went on to win the internationals and the Jhoon Rhee Nationals that year.

        By the end of 1968, Joe Lewis had mastered the principles of jeet kune do as they applied to sport fighting. At the U.S. Karate Championships in Dallas, Joe Lewis, undefeated in his 10 most recent title fights, prepared to enter the ring. To quell the complaints he often heard about the “kung fu guy” who never competed, Joe Lewis told the promoter that he wanted to give a JKD seminar before the bout so his opponents would know why he was sold on Bruce Lee. Joe Lewis then demonstrated the principle of independent motion and the five angles of attack.

        “I taught jeet kune do principles, either directly or through others, to many of the top fighters from the ’60s and ’70s,” Joe Lewis said. “Steve ‘Nasty’ Anderson came from our system. Before he started cleaning house with all the top black belts, he’d won 70 straight brown-belt titles. We knew before we made him a black belt that he was going to be great. He was a master of timing and distancing, two key principles which Bruce encouraged me to perfect.”

        Joe Lewis’ Favorite Jeet Kune Do Technique

        The JKD principles he learned from Bruce Lee still work in the ring, Joe Lewis said. “The problem today is that many instructors never field-test the material they teach. Most of what’s being taught was created on someone’s desktop or in someone’s mind but was never tested. I was Bruce Lee’s test tube. In 1968, during the peak of our training relationship, I won 11 straight championships.”

        Joe Lewis contends that the theories Bruce Lee advocated, including putting one’s power side forward, worked for all three original full-contact champs: Jeff Smith, Bill Wallace and himself. “I won my first kickboxing fight using Bruce Lee’s JKD material with my power side forward,” Joe Lewis said. “Jeff and Bill are both left-handed and based their entire fighting careers on putting their power side—their left side—forward.”

        One jeet kune do technique remains Joe Lewis’ favorite: the lead-hand punch. He trained intensively with Bruce Lee for nine months to polish it before he tried it in competition. Back in the 1960s, the lead hand was seldom used in karate competition because it was thought to have insufficient power to effect a “killing blow.” Joe Lewis’ secret entailed retracting his hand as though he was doing a backfist, which prompted referees to label it a back-knuckle strike. “Actually, it’s more like a fencing thrust using the fist,” Joe Lewis said.

        Joe Lewis contends that the lead-hand strike, done the way Bruce Lee intended it, is a viable technique for the 21st century, whether you’re sparring in a ring, battling in a cage or defending your life on the street. Like most of the moves Bruce Lee taught, it can give you the edge you need to win no matter where you fight.

      • I agree with you 100 percent bruce was bad ass, I get tired of people saying he wasn’t a real fighter but he could train real fighters and beat them

  76. I read an article about someone challenging Bruce on set to a fight and Bruce beat him. It goes on to say that the man was good but no expert. I’ve always personally thought Bruce perfected the technique of fighting but never the act of the fight. It was an art of expressing the limits and feats of the body. To me he revolutionized in how nutrition and exercise was thought about and looked at. While putting his own body to its pinnacle.
    Kind of like Batman going through all that training simply to just have the discipline and knowledge but to never put it to use.

    • Cameron – you`ve got your facts about the challenge on set back to front and Lee, according to his often sparring partner and pupil, Chuck Norris, describes Lee as a `Formidable` opponent/fighter and not some kid-on fighter…he`s just one of MANY top-of-the-heap fighters who say more or less the same about him.

      There is a video clip on youtube from a documentary on Bruce and it`s the director or one of the big shots on the set who actually witnessed the challenge and the subsequent beating he gave the very able big guy who challenged him…he finishes by saying Bruce held no grudge immediately after finishing him, quick-style and brutally and told him to get back up on the wall to allow them to continue filming…I`ll try and find this clip and post the link to it here so you can educate yourself…

    • Cameron – my apologies for mis reading your comment – thought you`d said he beat Bruce, but nevertheless, I`ll post the director`s comments of what he witnessed…he also went on to say Bruce was challenged all the time by martial artists on the street and he never refused a challenge and beat the shit, easily out of the best of them and there were MANY according to this guy who challenged this walking legend…a bit like the old wild west with everybody challenging the top gunfighter of the day to a duel…

  77. Old article, but I gotta say I really can’t stand the comparisons between Lee and competitive martial artists in general. If someone is “just” a movie martial artist, it’s always put a bit derisively; they aren’t “real” fighters, but if we really want to make that distinction, the fact is that competitive martial artists aren’t either. They have a skill set that is POSSIBLY more applicable outside of controlled scenarios, but realistically, their core skills are just as different from the core skills of someone who is training to incapacitate or kill another human being n an uncontrolled situation as a movie martial artist’s are. The primary skill of a “real” fighter isn’t really martial arts at all; it’s the ability to dehumanize targets in their mind, which is something you’ll find in military training more than in martial arts. This isn’t saying that martial arts training and good physical condition aren’t assets too, but the fact is that the differences between any two healthy human bodies are ultimately not big enough to give decent odds to anyone in an uncontrolled fight. “Real” fights are messy and ugly, and winning them is as much luck as anything else. This is why you’ll find things like Musashi equating many of his own duelling victories to factors which have nothing to do with his personal skill. So idealizing one expression of martial arts over another based on its (incorrectly) perceived closeness to an uncontrolled fight is kind of dumb. But we still do it, and so of course people are going to get offended when we talk about Lee not being a competitive martial artist.

    The truth is, if Lee had been a competitive martial artist, he wouldn’t have accomplished nearly as much, because even if he was great at it, he would just have been any other guy competing. Being a popular figure is what allowed Lee to do everything he did for martial arts.

  78. Stuart, dude. If it looked spectacular in a scene and it didn’t work in a real fight, then that makes it even crappier. Point is, it wasn’t really spectacular at all. It was just crap. Complete crap.

    • Have to honestly say your ability to reason is about the worst I`ve come across…the word nonsensical springs to mind.

    • Dreamhunter…I have no idea where you get your information regarding Bruce Lee? You bring absolutely no facts to the discussion table.

      1. Bruce Lee did NOT say he knocked out WJM. He said he got him on the ground and made him give up. Lee had also NEVER mentioned WJM’s name (as per their agreement) while discussing the match with anyone. He always referred to WJM as ‘Some Gung Fu Cat”. According to author Norman Borine, Wong tried to delay the match and asked for restrictions on techniques such as hitting the face, kicking the groin, and eye jabs etc. Lee would have none of that, stating: “You came here to fight, it’s no holds barred…anything goes!”
      WJM claims that he had asked for a rematch in a local newspaper (the Chinese Pacific Weekly). I’ve been searching for that paper since I had read about the initial match in 1973. No one I’ve spoken to, had ever read such a challenge in that particular paper at the time WJM claims, or any other. Why on earth would someone who won a fight ask for a rematch? It doesn’t make sense, yet WJM claims he asked for one. We’ll never know exactly what happened that day. Win or lose, WJM should be thankful to be immortalised in the legacy of Bruce Lee. He would died a relatively obscure martial artist had it not been for Lee.

      2. Lee had no good kicks? Have to respectfully disagree… He had beautiful kicks! They were fast, powerful, direct and very street effective. Even his flying sidekicks were great to watch. But don’t be foolish enough to think that Lee didn’t differentiate kicking for the camera in contrast to kicks he would have used in a real street confrontation. Many techniques Lee used in his films would have worked wonderfully on the street. Believe me, Lee knew that his flying sidekick was strictly for cinematic purposes. Because as you correctly pointed out, they could be easily defended against. At least Lee couldn’t be accused of ‘wire-fu’ and flowery traditional ineffective techniques which STILL persist in martial art films to this day!

      3. You said: “If one guy claims that he simply discovered a fighting system that put him leagues apart from the rest of the planet, one would have to raise a healthy degree of scepticism. You think all those other guys who hv spent decades perfecting their skills, be it in kung fu, karate, TKD, hap ki do, judo, ju jutsu, aikido etc. were all so dumb as to not hv realised their own stupid ways?”

      Lee never claimed Jeet Kune Do put him leagues apart from the rest of the planet. Those are your (incorrect) words. Lee simply said to break free of styles/systems, as they solidify the practitioner who was once not bound by any combat doctrine. He was right. How can one possibly think that fixed patterns would be a good offense or defense in a situation that is constantly changing by fractions of a second? It has never worked and never will.
      In Lee’s day, martial artists spent their lives learning one style of combat, or at best learning two or three and melding them together. They weren’t dissecting ALL styles/systems, and incorporating what works best for them into something specifically suited for that individual.
      As Kareem Abdul Jabaar said in ‘A Warrior’s Journey” Can you imagine me trying to get my hip under the average size man to throw him?” It’s just not practical. Yet the hip throw is taught in a number of grappling systems. “Adapt what is useful, reject what is useless, and add what is specifically your own.” – Bruce Lee

      • 4. You said: ” BL was a great actor, and he knew a bit of MA. Plus, he was also a great salesman and self-marketer. That is about all. To say that he was a MA superman, or a MA demigod would be too far off the mark. Because his so called ‘amazing achievements’ as a fighter are mostly hearsay.”

        I agree that Lee was a ‘good’ actor, and a great salesman and marketer!
        As for knowing ‘a bit’ of MA’?… Lee could talk extensively with anyone about every martial art ever documented. He had a library of nearly 3,000 books on various forms of combat and philosophy. Do your research and you’d know that scores of MA masters and pro fighters were in awe of his martial art knowledge.

        Chuck Norris – “So we were taking a cab to the hotel, and now we are really getting involved in our conversation. We get to the hotel and are going up in the lift to the floor that Bruce’s room is on.
        We both step out into the hallway – it was about twelve o’clock by now – the next thing I know I’ve got my jacket off and we are working out in the hallway. I swear to you that the next time I looked at my watch it was seven o’clock the next morning. I looked at my watch again, I could not believe it, I had a flight in two hours back to Los Angeles! For time to go by that quickly, Bruce MUST have been quite knowledgable in the martial arts!”

        5. You said: “To say that he was a MA superman, or a MA demigod would be too far off the mark. Because his so called ‘amazing achievements’ as a fighter are mostly hearsay.”

        Do you even have a remote idea as to the caliber and reputations of the masters and pro fighters that have supplied all of this ‘hearsay’? I’ve never considered Bruce Lee a demi-god, but he MUST have been an incredible fighter!
        Why do I say this? Look at the distinguished list of martial artists that said so. Everyone from Pan Amercican Gold Medal winning Judoka Hayward Nishioka to professional Karate champion Jim Kelly had said in their opinion, Lee was unbeatable.
        Here is a video interview of Kelly stating just that:. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGTRugkyCFs
        Go exactly five minutes into the interview.
        The reason this particular interview is so compelling, is that Kelly was Norris’s, Lewis’s, Stone’s and a host of other great champions contemporaries. Kelly knew full well just how good these guys REALLY were and yet he still felt Lee was unbeatable.

        There is just far too much info to include here, but next time you decide to educate us on a topic you know very little about, please think twice and do your homework!!

      • That was another fascinating interview of a fighter and his honest opinion of Bruce…guys like Jim Kelly have mixed with the toughest fighters on the planet and also observed the very best in the world in action as well as being taught by the best and still he openly says Bruce was, in his opinion, the greatest martial artist of all time…unless you`ve witnessed in real life what Kelly has and what brought him to this conclusion, anything anybody says to the contrary about Bruce is third-rate compared to a guy who actually mixed with him at his peak.

  79. Imo Frank w dux is the greatest martial artist to walk the planet earth he was undefeated in 329 matches that’s amazing

    • 329 matches? Where’s the proof? I believe every martial art magazine on planet had done research on the guy at one time to try to substantiate his claims, but to no avail. Steven Seagal and Dux are both hiding behind a mysterious persona that they and/or a press agent had concocted. All these secret tournament wins, ties to the CIA and clandestine military records are utter rubbish. No doubt, both are excellent martial artists. At least that much is fact.

  80. Tell ya all what. Just take out your favourite Bruce Lee fight CD or videotape. Then watch it again for your 100th time or whatever. Then try to identify one decent kick from Bruce in it. Roundhouse, reverse roundhouse, front thrust, reverse thrust, No, you won’t find one. Cos he simply hasn’t got one. And his spectacular trademark flying side kick is a joke. It could be so easily countered, and you won’t kill a goose with it. End of story.

    • His flying kick was for effect in movies as were some other stuff that was for show and looked spectacular on film, not for nose to nose street fighting for real. You obviously ain’t read much about what he actually says re film stuff and reality stuff.

  81. Uh uh. It’s all a load of hype and bull. If one guy claims that he simply discovered a fighting system that put him leagues apart from the rest of the planet, one would have to raise a healthy degree of scepticism. You think all those other guys who hv spent decades perfecting their skills, be it in kung fu, karate, TKD, hap ki do, judo, ju jutsu, aikido etc. were all so dumb as to not hv realised their own stupid ways? Good Lord, save me the disgust. No I aint got anything against someone trying to do something different for his own good. But all this demigod worship is just beyond me.

  82. Including my two former TKD instructors, one of whom was ASEAN champion in his time. And what MA tournament did Bruce win?

    • Before he developed his own fighting method, defo would have been some around who would have beaten him…however, after several years of his new training and fighting methods where, according to the guy in this video, he developed the art of fighting to an incredible level, very, very few people could live with him and that’s what I’m referring to – how good he was at the end of his life…many reckoned invincible, I reckon as close to being invincible as humanly possible, but, as we all know, no one can be invincible in reality. However, for a wee, slim guy around 5ft 8 inches to even be considered by many to be this, out of all the billions of guys on this planet, shows you just how INCREADIBLY SPECIAL he was truly was and anybody with a keen interest in fighting of any sort should be appreciative of this whether they like him or not.

    • You’ve obviously not watched the video below of the comments of a proven fighter talking about how tournament fighting does not reflect real, no-holds-barred fighting that does not have rules to save or benefit a fighter – watch the video and listen to what he says.

  83. Now that you’ve agreed that Bruce came second best to WJM, then I’d say that he would hv come second best to numerous other guys, too numerous to mention. Because there were numerous other guys on the planet at the time, who had been as seriously training in MA for as long WJM, and who would been easily as good as WJM.

  84. Wow! Quite a few Bruce Lee fanboys comin out of the woodwork now then. Go on, dudes. BL tried to kill Wong Jack Man in BL’s place. WJM recovered from the initial shock, neutralised him and got the better of him eventually. WJM could hv whupped Bruce real good, he was schooled in northern shaolin with its power kicks, while BL had only done wing chun which specialised only in hand moves. The deal was then that neither would speak to anyone about about the secret fight.but BL boasted that he whupped WJM. WJM then challenged Bruce to a fight in public. BL never responded. Waht else is there to be said now then

    • I`m a massive Bruce Lee fan, but I have no doubts he came off second best to WJM and it was the best thing that could have happened to him, because I get the distinct impression from reading between the lines, it was a real eye-opener to Bruce and instantly brought home to him his weaknesses in his training methods and the limitations in the style he`d always practiced. He then went on to develop his own near invincible art of fighting and developed his training methods to do workouts that few could equal, then and now.

      On another note – check out the guy from my own part of the world (Glasgow, Scotland) whom Jessie Glover describes as the only guy he has ever seen, in a lifetime of traveling the world and mixing with the best martial artists on the planet, who has the same explosive speed and power as Bruce and who, in Jessie`s opinion, has better and more flexible leg abilities.

      Jessie reckons an explosive punch from either fighter could stop an opponents heart from beating. We`ll never get to see the truly legendary Bruce in action, but we can get to see what it was like to watch him work out, by watching Tommy Carruthers` AWESOME speed and power in his sparring sessions etc. Tommy is a massive Bruce fan and told Jessie he developed his speed and power by simply watching how Bruce did it in his movies, along with total dedication to the way Bruce trained and taught.

      One guy I would love to see Tommy spar with is Steven Segal who don`t rate Bruce much at all…Steven is genuinely lethal, so would be real interesting to see if he could cope with Tommy`s Bruce-like speed and power.

      Here`s just one link to Tommy doing his thing at youtube and here he`s in L.A. doing a wee sparring session at a hotel function…listen to the genuine gasps of the watchers as he puts together combinations that look cartoon-ish because they are sooo fast…that`s what Jackie Chan said about Bruce…you couldn`t see his moves, it was a blur like the action in a cartoon…Tommy is near to doing this here…

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  86. check out this link at youtube to a fighter who knew Bruce and how he rated him…it`s a real eye-opener.

  87. i am the greatest martial artist of all the time bruce lee is my uncle

  88. Fuck you bruce is the best and you are a fat white man whos 46 lml

  89. to all you bruce lee fanatics bruce was a good martial artist next where are his proven fights. simply none of his so called fights were ever documented lastly jet li would kick bruce lee’s ass for ive studied wushu in houston tx with the masters that trained jet li personally

  90. then my friend , u really don’t know Lee

    • The Bible wasn’t reinterpreted and changed thousands of times. Please get a clue before you make such ridiculous statments.

  91. Would you have liked to have fought Bruce Lee?
    Anderson Silva: “No. I would like to have known him and to have had lessons with him. But to risk a fight with Bruce Lee? No.”

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  93. Bruce lee was quick, strong, intelligent, and used great foot work. Who else uses great foot work? Anderson Silva. In one of Andersons Fights Joe Rogan stated ” Wow he’s moving just like Bruce Lee.” Now you might be saying… you can’t compair Bruce to Anderson. Well I didn’t. I compaired Anderson to Bruce. If Andersons movement is so much like Bruce Lee, then don’t you think Bruce also would have been a great fighter?

  94. you have obvioulsy never boxed or fought a boxer.

    • You have obviously never faced a judo expert.

      • Sonny Crockett

        What most people don’t realize is that Jeet Kune do was not made for tournament fighting. The art as it was taught by Bruce himself was for self-defense in street-scenarios. Eye-gauging and other tactics made to cause permanent damage were espounded upon often. In a real street-fight, a boxer, karate-man, judo-man or any other “man” who follows a systematic “system”, will always fall to an in shape, well prepared street-fighter who will use whatver tactic necessary. And contrary to what some still believe, that’s what was Bruce was at heart and there are many stories of his challenges by stuntmen on film-sets or “masters” who questioned whether or not he was that talented.

  95. Bruce Lee lived by “using no way as way, having no limitation as limitation”. Of course you cannot do this in a ring, only a real fight is settled on the street and that is all that mattered to Bruce. After all, he grew up fighting on the streets. If someone came up to Bruce and tried to pick a fight do you really think he would’ve of said,wait, let’s go find a ring to fight in? Would you?

  96. Well, it’s all about objectivity, PhilC. It’s not about deriding or denigrating someone’s achievements. BL was a great actor, and he knew a bit of MA. Plus, he was also a great salesman and self-marketer. That is about all. To say that he was a MA superman, or a MA demigod would be too far off the mark. Because his so called ‘amazing achievements’ as a fighter are mostly hearsay.

    So he was once crazy about fighting, picking up fights with all and sundry. So? So are so many other young punks everywhere else in the world. But that doesn’t mean they are MA supermen.

    So Ip man called BL ‘crazy about fighting’. Ip Man also called him ‘not a serious student.’ That must be a big deal, coming from someone like Ip Man.

    Chuck Norris can say that he once beat Jerry Lewis, and several others, in the ring. Louis Delgado can say that he once beat Chuck Norris, and several others, in the ring. These are what real fighters do. Fight in the ring. They win or they lose. They put their rep on the line. In front of many who can witness their achievements with their own eyes.

    But BL only beat one Gary Elms at high school. He boasted about wiping the floor with WJM in 3 minutes, when it was WJM who made him breathless in 15 – 20 minutes. When WJM got sick and tired of his bragging and issued him a challenge to another fight, this time a public fight that all can watch, he did not respond.

    Chuck Norris had had to for many years diplomatically fend off probing questions about BL’s true ability because he had great respect for him as a teacher-instructor. It would have hurt BL’s rep as an MA action movie actor were CN to have told the brutal truth. It would also have provoked BL’s legion of crazy, fanatical idol worshipping fans. Of whom yours truly was one, for quite some years.

    There’s no big deal about BL starting his own MA school of JKD – a hybrid of wing chun and TKD – at 26 years old either. My TKD instructor was ASEAN WTF champion at 21. With him being a Malaysian-born ethnic southern Indian, well versed in kalari payattu, silambattam and Malayo-Indonesian silat, he could easily have started an exotic 4-style hybrid new MA school of his own too.

    But a brand is just what it is. A brand. It’s the person’s true fighting ability that counts, irregardless of what form or style he favours. And that cannot be assessed mostly on hearsay alone. Or what he does on the silver screen alone.

  97. AL: Hate to break it to you, but your blog on Bruce Lee is a mess. I could write a book on the half-truths, suppositions, and utter b.s. contained in your blog. For the sake of space, I’ll focus on your claims that Lee was unproven. First of all, to state that Lee was unproven because he didn’t compete in point tournaments demonstrates that you have no idea what REAL fighting is nor do you have a clue as to why point fighters in the 1960′s waited until Bruce had passed before talking shit.

    Yip Man called Bruce, “fighting crazy,” and his brother Robert stated that Bruce was such a feared street fighter that his fellow high school classmates called him “King Gorilla.” With no boxing experience, Bruce then entered the Hong Kong high school boxing championships and he defeated 3 time champion Gary Elms for the lightweight title. A fight with the son of a triad member placed Bruce in the crosshairs of both law enforcement and the triads, so his father shipped him off to America in 1959.

    Bruce’s penchant for getting into REAL fights continued during his years in America from 1959-1970. In that same time period, he trained the best point fighters of that era which included Joe Lewis, Mike Stone, Chuck Norris, and Louis Delgado. In a 1970 interview with Black Belt Magazine, Delgado admitted that Lee not only changed his training regiment, but that sparring sessions with the Little Dragon were the most humbling experiences of his martial arts career. In 1974, Delgado told Fighting Stars magazine that Lee was the toughest man he ever faced.

    Lee also sparred with Chuck Norris, but despite some of those sessions being witnessed by Dan Inosanto, Norris told his fellow point fighters and several interviewers that he and Lee never sparred. A few years ago, Norris finally fessed up to sparring against Lee, stating “it was fun.” Could the reason why Norris bullshitted the world about this issue for 35 years was due to Bruce getting the best of him in these sessions?

    It’s important to remember that in the 1960′s, NOBODY, and I mean, nobody, was sparring the way that Bruce and his students were sparring at his kwoon in L.A./Chinatown. Lee and his students sparred all out in full gear during a time when sparring in martial arts schools were glorified games of tag. One must then ask, who exactly was proving themselves and who wasn’t?

    Let’s talk turkey, Bruce Lee was a genius and that is why the top martial artists of his day sought him out. To argue whether he was the greatest fighter of all-time is irrelevant. What is relevant is that he was a highly skilled martial artist who created his own martial art at the tender age of 26.

  98. All right, let’s just see things in perspective. It was the late 60s – early 70s. Chinese kung fu, of any style, was a total absolute mystery to Caucasians. Unlike karate, tae kwon do or judo. It was all about mystery and curiosity. They wanted to see what the fuss was all about. Of course, once they got started, they got hooked by the power of habit and familiarity. But they would have done the same had they tried learning Thai kickboxing, Malayo-Indonesian silat or Khmer bokator or pradal serey.

    Chinese kung fu practitioners kept the art to themselves and their own community that time. Teaching it to outsiders was a de facto taboo. BL broke that taboo. That was indirectly what brought about that fight between BL and WJM. Not because WJM wanted to punish BL for breaking a taboo, but because BL was boasting and bragging left, right and centre about being able to beat any ‘kung fu cat’ in the area who would have the balls to fight him. And BL had only 2 years of wing chun under his belt then.

    So, BL was one of the very few Chinese practioners in America who would teach kung fu to Caucasians. Of course they all flocked to him.

    And he wasn’t even approved to instructor-grade competency. Not in any style. Not wing chun, nor TKD. He never stuck to any style for more than 2 years. Ip Man his wing chun teacher even said that BL was ‘not a serious student’. He was too impatient. A quality not compatible with true MA learning.

    That’s why BL ‘invented’ JKD, his own personal patented style. So he could get around that competency hindrance and be ‘recognised’ as an instructor – of his own ‘brand’ of MA.

    There’s nothing extra fantastic about JKD either. It was just BL’s instant chop suey mix of wing chun and TKD. All those fancy moves you see in his movies, including the ones using the baton-and-chain nunchaku, many others could actually do much better than him. Because they were simply better trained than him. But BL, with his charisma, star quality and all, and him being in the movie-entertainment business, successfully made a big fuss of his JKD – his new, exotic, revolutionary MA style – and sold it to the world. Via his smoothly, neatly choreographed fight moves on the silver screen. Using proven competitive ring fighters paid lucratively to lose to him.

  99. Ha ha. I love him too. That’s why I don’t want him worshipped unduly by starstruck admirers.

    Dude, what you’ve been cosmically bedazzled by is the man’s charisma and his star quality, rather than his real world MA skill.

    The WJM-BL match was a private and spontaneous one. Done behind closed doors in total secrecy. It occurred because BL boasted that he could beat anyone in the area. It was not even arranged. Only a handful watched it, among them Linda Lee and Wiliam Chen.

    Yes, BL wanted desperately to kill WJM. He was manic. He went for WJM’s eyes as soon as WJM held out his hands for the opening handshake. But WJM was sane and sober, and nor murderous. He fought defensive, with extraordianry restraint, because with his vastly superior skill and experince in Northern Shaolin he could have killed BL if he wanted to with his power kicks. BL only learned wing chun, which focused on hand strikes. No massive kicks there.

    The agreement was that neither side would issue any comment to outsiders after the fight. But BL broke his side of it, boasting that he’d whupped WJM in 3 minutes. Although it more likely lasted 15 minutes or more, and BL was breathless by the end of that. That’s why WJM issued a public challenge to BL for a PUBLIC rematch. BL never responded to that WJM challenge. Cos he knew WJM would embarrass him again.

    Some questions:
    Who closed his school after that fight?: BL
    Who decided to change his style after that fight because he thought it was inadequate?: BL
    Who left the area and shifted somewhere else after the fight?: BL
    Who sought out his opponent’s teacher and requested to train under him after the fight?: BL

    Dude. The ring IS where and how you pick up the skills, the confidence and the poise for a real life fight. You could break a man’s neck and kill him by creeping up in stealth from the back. But that’s not a fair fight, is it? Although it would be a good skill to have if you’re a commando, a guerilla fighter or an assassin.

    If you can’t even handle it in the ring, what chance have you got in a street fight? Unless all you’re good at is creepin up from behind. Or striking someone when he’s not ready or not looking.

    • I quite agree with u on BL not being a fighter on the grounds of definition, bt that doesnt mean he can’t fight in the ring. I use to wonder myself why he hasn’t gone for fighting competition until I understood that he is against ‘styles’, fighting with rules and all that. I believe that if he goes for a fighting competition, anybody can beat him, but to fight without styles, without rules, I’ll place my last penny on BL with all confidence. WJM ought to beat BL then, if that was the case, I wouldn’t be shocked cos Lee was just a wing chun practisioner not even a master compared to WJM. I dnt judge BL from the period b4 the JKD era, anybody can beat him then. If u’ve watch the green hornet series, even the big boss U’d knw wat I’m talking abt even Jason Statham would kick BL ass as at that time, but from the JKD era….. Boy its a different thing entirely. For me He’s gonna kick the asses of WJM, CN, JL but its not as if its gonna be dat easy but I strongly believe he’ would win. BL is not a fighter by profession it doesnt mean he can’t fight cos I wonder what on earth would make a fighter(Joe Lewis, Chuck Norris) train with an ordinary film actor. I dnt think even U would be crazy enough to do that if you were a real fighter. Thanks

    • Sonny Crockett

      Yehhhh….you’re whole scenario doesn’t fly. NO-ONE and I repeat, NO-ONE who wins a fight asks for a rematch. WJM got his ass handed to him that day (no biggie, it happens) and Bruce realized the folly of relying on a set system and needed better conditioning….changing martial arts as we know it.

    • MartialArtsMan77

      I’m seeing all this stuff about Bruce Lee and fighting and I would LOVE to know where you get your information from.

      I used to worship Bruce Lee and he was the reason I started taking kung fu. I studied Shao Lin (Northern) for about 4 years. I also learned Iron Palm, Hsing Yi and Pa Kua. However, my main focus was Shao Lin. Then, I decided to take Bruce Lee’s advice and branch off on my own and learn from different styles. I acquired books on boxing, savate, fencing, etc…just like Bruce. I trained on my own for about 2 years. I then studied Wing Chun for about 1 year. I’m looking to get back into it. I was never a “fighter” but I considered myself a good martial artist.

      While there are many things about Bruce I’ve been reading about that I didn’t know when I was 16 (hashish use, steroids, et al), I DO know that so many account for the fact that he was a good fighter. No disrespect but tournaments do not prove anything except one’s ability to compete within a range of rules. Boxing in the ring proves how good a boxer is in the ring confined to the rules of boxing. Are there boxers and tournament fighters that are good “fighters?” Absolutely. But one doesn’t warrant the other. I was a skilled martial artist but I’m not sure about a skilled fighter because I was never in an actual fight. I enjoyed the spirituality and fitness benefits of martial arts. If I faced a street fighter with nothing to lose I would eventually be defeated because in my opinion, being a good “fighter” is 50% mental. BL used to say that the most dangerous opponent is one with no training and is just balls out crazy because he would be so unpredictable. And Bruce was fearless which means that in a fight he would either be killed or kill. That’s a trait I would never want to go up against.

      Bruce Lee spent many years fighting on the rooftops of Hong Kong and he did, in fact, knock out the son of a Triad leader. I know the WJM fight was embellished and that he ended up winded. So what? What’s wrong with recognizing your style has flaws? No style is perfect and to say one style is better than another is asinine. Like BL said, ‘As long as we have 4 arms and 3 legs we will have different forms of fighting.’ There’s no way that one style works for everyone. I’m 5’11. I was a VERY fast and powerful kicker at one point. However, if I were to spar a 5’2″ boxer I wouldn’t attempt high kicks as he could get right under me. Therefore, adapting a method of fighting suitable to your build, strengths, weaknesses, etc is genius. That’s why MMA fighters are so dangerous.

      And MA is NOT a sport. Some of them became sports like karate, judo, and TKD. Kung fu is extremely deadly and every blow is meant to maim or kill. EVERYTHING is a weapon which is why some items such as umbrellas and canes became forms. Jackie Chan implements this theory wonderfully on screen.

      What made BL so great was certainly his charisma, but his thinking on the martial way was revolutionary…not some cockeyed attempt at escaping from mastery of any particular style. He is dead on by saying that style does crystallize an individual and lock him into one way of thinking. If only religious fanatics could learn from each other the way Bruce got martial artists to do.

  100. yeah yeah yeah,lets reason b4 we talk, Wong Jackman beat Bruce Lee yet he asked 4 a rematch. Fellas, pls would U ask 4 a rematch after beating someone? What on earth would make U regret a fight U won?, Joe Lewis says Bruce Lee is just an actor,not a fighter yet trained under or with him 4 about 2yrs. As a real fighter, training with a mere actor 4 nearly 2yrs, don’t u think thats a dumb thing to do, wasting 2yrs of your life training with a mere actor when you are a real fighter. jL was advised to train with Bruce Lee by another fighter. For me, A real fighter is one who can defend himself in real life situations and not some tournaments where you fight with rules and restrictions, such as no jabbing fingers in the eyes, no kicking to the groin and all that, where you dont want to kill the next person, The truth is that a real fighter is one who has proven himself in real life situations and not in the ring where fighting becomes a sport. Joe Lewis, Chuck Norris and the rest may be champions in the ring but have they proven themselves in real life battles? I compare Bruce Lee to the likes of YipMan, Wong Fei Hong, Huo Yan Jia and the rest who are real heros of the art. Now because they didnt compete in the ring, does that mean they can’t fight?, Bruce Lee defeated Gary Elms, in a boxing tournament, defeated an extra during filming ‘Enter the Dragon’, Bob Wall gives acct of this story, defeated a black belt holder a japanese, fight lasted 11secs, and so on. Bruce Lee has proven himself both at tounaments and real life situations, so if it pains you you can go and hang yourselves. Whether you like it or not. he is one of the greatest fighters in the world. I love Bruce Lee…

  101. Ok, so Joe Lewis trained under BL for 2 years. He was even the initial first choice for the role of Colt, the MA hitman for hire in The Way of the Dragon. But JL was dumped in the last weeks for Chuck Norris. Why? Very likely JL didn’t want to be the stooge for hire in that BL’s MA-action-thriller-comedy.

    Calm down Mr. Brantley. No need to get all warmed up about nothing. I was a teenager with zero MA experience when BL first exploded on the East Asian movie MA scene. So were all of my friends. Of course we all believed everything we saw on screen that time. We thought BL was, well, a god of war if you might.

    But a lot of time has passed sinced then. Many of us have trained for significant periods in karate, tae kwon do, thai kickboxing etc., engaging in regular freee sparring, some even participating in tournaments. We have progressed way beyond our first moments of innocent wide-eyed thrall in MA. Moments that were first inspired by BL, of course. And for that, the man has my all my respect.

    Now we can judge and assess how good and how realistic a movie fight scene is when we watch one. We can follow a fight with our eyes move by move, punch by punch, kick a by kick. Whereas when The Big Boss and Fist of Fury came out, everything was just a flurry of wild moves to us then. Any combat move accompanied by a mean looking snarl and a fierce sounding scream would look like a fantastic move that time. But now, I can tell you, there’s nothing extra special, or out of this world, in any of BL’s movie fight scenes. Nothing that any other decent actor-fighter of the 1980s, 1990s and 2000s can’t match. Don’t want to burst your bubble, but then that’s the truth.

    The point I’m trying to put across is that, if we just go by what we saw on screen, in The Way of the Dragon for instance, then BL would definitely whup Chuck Norris or Joe Lewis in the ring. Do you really, seriously believe that would be the case? Sly Stallone practically whupped Carl Weathers’ arse in Rocky – quite convincingly so also, it seemed, on screen – but does that mean Sly would do the same in the ring?

    Teaching fighting is not the same as actually doing fighting. An experienced fight teacher might be able to teach an active fighter some new exotic fight moves, from his long and dedicated experience alone, but that doesn’t mean that the teacher would automatically beat his more ringworthy student in the ring.

    Like I said earlier, it was BL himself who said, “No chi, no bull. It’s all about training,” in his letter to his wing chun teacher and mentor, Ip Man. If BL could send a 300 lb bag flying against the ceiling, then so could have many other guys. BL did not have any absolute monopoly on any internal nuke energy or whatever.

  102. Erik Brantley

    Hey Dreamhunter I do appreciate the back and forth. Its nice to have friendly debates with other people who appreciate the arts..but anyway…So you are saying that Dan Insanto is not telling the truth? He was there he knew both men, you weren’t there and don’t know either man yet he is wrong and you are right? Speaking of enter the Dragon..Look up some interviews from Bob Wall about Bruce. He confirms that Bruce was the real deal. Bruce Lee didn’t come to Norris ,Stone, and Lewis to train…they came to him.. As far as a 600lb bag goes..I said that there were eyewitness’s that verify that the bag he sent flying was 300lbs(not 600lbs). A bag that no one else could move. Ed Parker the founder of American Kenpo Karate was not impressed by a mediocre actor martial artist. He liked what he sw and invited him to his famous expo. Joe Lewis didn’t just train with Lee for “a little while”.. it was 2 years..You better believe he was seeing something unique in Bruce considering he got 3 black belts in the far east in less than 1 year….James Demile who was 200-0 in the military in boxing said that he couldn’t even touch Bruce Lee. Gene Labell once said that Bruce Lee was the greatest martial artist he had ever seen…So with Norris ,stone, and Lewis(world champions) training under Bruce, Gene Leball’s comments. Ed Parkers invite,Jhoon Rhee’s comments about Lees ability to master his best moves in days ,Bob Walls comments about Bruce being the real deal..etc.. With all those comments by people who were qualified and there and you can honestly say that Bruce was just some actor with mediocre ability?

  103. As for that 300 lb smack-up-against-the-ceiling bag kick, well, we’ve all heard many variants of it before, haven’t we? What kick was it, a simple roundhouse, a reverse roundhouse, or a reverse thrust?

    My first TKD intructor, a 3rd Danner, had a kick hard as heck. No, he never did that. My 2nd one, also a 3rd Danner, was 1980 ASEAN WTF champion. No, he couldn’t do that either. So what did BL have in his leg, Kryptonite steel?

  104. Joe Lewis never, ever sparred with BL. Period. Look up any genuine interview with Joe Lewis. JL trained for a while under BL, like any good martial artist would, to see if he could get stuff he hadn’t got from somewhere else. Apparently he did not. But JL did up-end Muhammad Ali and send him down on his back once or twice in some good natured horsing around.

    BL once walked up to a 150 lb bag that Joe was training with, then said it was a ‘girl’s bag’, and asked for a 600 pounder. JL got one for him, he kicked his darndest best, and was flung back 5 ft away. That’s BL for you. He was a goofer like any other. I guess that’s part of his greatness. But being this untouchable, out-of-this-world MA demigod, definitely he is not. If he really was, one would have seen it in his movies. For Enter the Dragon, he was not only the actor, but also the director, producer and choreographer. He was a god all right there. But one could not, could one?

    All these ‘anecdotes’ that guys like Dan Inosanto, James de Mille etc. like to entertain us all with, they have to be taken with a bit of salt with them. Maybe loads of salt. They’re just pure entertainment. It’s just like that piece of Arnold Schwarznegger sage advice to someone who couldn’t build up enough muscle no matter how hard he trained. Arnold told the guy to crush loads and loads of peanut shell, then mix it with plenty of salt, and consume as much of it as he could take regularly. The poor dude took Arnold at his word and practised his new special diet with fervent religious zeal, and ended up severely sick and hospitalised several months later.

  105. As far as Bruce’s kicking ability.. Jhonn Rhee the father of American tae kwon do said that he once showed Bruce Lee his best kick that took him years to learn and a week later his said that Bruce Lee could do it better than him… It is documented by eye witnesses that at Prof Wally Jays studio that Bruce kick at 300 lb punching back and made the bad smack up against the ceiling when very few others could even move it…As far as your points about those guys being just curious? I respectfully disagree with you on that. Joe Lewis and Chuck Norris earned there eastern art black belts overseas..Lewis got 3 black belts in under a year in Okinawa (Norris in South Korea) . Being curious is one thing, but training with an “actor” for 2 years(Which Lewis did) is something different. Joe Lewis was a put up or shut up kind of guy. He didn’t have a whole lot of respect for kung fu guys because of what he witnessed not what he heard so I will guarantee that he saw Bruce do some amazing things. Dan Insanto told James Demile that he witnessed Lewis and Lee sparring and said it looked like a professional boxer playing with a golden gloves boxer. He said Lewis couldn’t do anything with Bruce. James Demile trained with Bruce in settle for almost 4 years and he has gone on the train military personnel and police offices. He said he has never in his 30 years of training seen anyone who he thought could defeat Bruce in a real fight..And Demile doesn’t even like Bruce Lee as a person, they had a falling out apparently.

  106. Just plain curiosity. They were simply wondering what the fuss was all about. It was barely 1970. Eastern martial arts then – with its penchant for spirituality, secrecy etc. was still a total mystery to westerners, except to those rare few who had trained in karate, judo or ju ju tsu.

    The travel to the west was slow. Even in mid 1980′s, when I was a student in England, eastern martial arts was still unfamiliar to many. I could easily hit a local opponent 20 – 30 lb heavier and 4 – 8 in taller and beat him with what was my rudimentary side kick at the time. And I wasn’t even a belted trainee then.

    BL pulled the curtains up on what was previously privy to a select few. Kung fu was then not even freely taught to non-Chinese, especially not white men. It was taboo. BL was condemned left, right and centre by orthodox sifu for breaking that taboo.

    Joe Lewis was cocky? Not any much more than BL was. JL was just frank and straight to the point. No bull. Every champion needs to have a bit cockiness anyway, or he won’t get very far in his field. Nothing wrong with that. Muhammad Ali & George Foreman had it too.

    Know what? There was something BL wrote in a private letter to Ip Man, his teacher and mentor. He said, “No chi, no bull. It’s all about training.” Oh yeah, that was what the great Bruce Lee himself said.

    Go back and watch your favourite old movie of BL. Better still, all of them. See if you can find a decent enough roundhouse, reverse roundhouse, spinning reverse roundhouse, or reverse thrust kick in it. You won’t. Cos BL could never ever do one properly.

    BL never liked to kick higher than waist level. Until he met Chuck Norris, with his high-kick power-kick experience in tang soo do, and Chuck persuaded BL to learn it. That was when BL went to learn TKD, then synthesised all he got from TKD with wing chun and invented his own personally patented JKD.

    If BL could be resurrected today, the way he was in 1972 – when he was at the peak of his movie stardom – and you put him in the ring against someone like Daniel Craig, Jason Statham or Scott Adkins, I would think many, many times about putting my last dollar on BL.

  107. What people fail to realize is that if Bruce was just a pretty good athlete or an entertainer…why would all those world class champion fighters(Chuck Norris, Joe Lewis, Mike Stone) even bother training with him? They must have saw something…As arrogant and cocky that Joe Lewis was you can’t tell me that he would train with just an actor. What world champion boxer trains with Stallone?

    • What world champion boxer trains with Stallone?
      Ehh… Stallone trained with Hand of Stone Roberto Duran. So shut your mouth about the that.And they did not train with him, they merely exchanged ideas about Martial Art. If you want to say that Lee was a martial artist, fine. If you want to say that he’s a fighter,then no.

      What YOU failed to realized that Joe Lewis, Chuck Norris and most of these people are already World Champions in each of their own Martial Art discipline before they met Lee. It was Bruce Lee who invited them to take part in his movies. Joe Lewis said it best as to why he didn’t appear on the filming set with Bruce; He doesn’t want to shoot a movie where Bruce Lee gets to fulfill his ego trip by looking good on beating up big guys on screen.

    • Robert De Niro also beat up Jake La Motta (a famous professional boxer) badly in one of his sparring sessions for the movie Raging Bull, but you’ve never heard of it, do you? Does anyone now claims that Robert De Niro was the best middleweight boxer? No…. Because some boxers tend to go easy on sparring. And the fact that De Niro beat La Motta in a sparring session doesn’t mean that he can knock him out in the ring.

  108. So ya think guys like Mike Tyson and Evander Holyfield left their minds at home when they go for their $million fights then? And Muhammad Ali and George Foreman too?

    Mental or physical, it’s all science. None of it is sorcery. Either what one has on him works, or it doesn’t. No mumbo jumbo, abra cadabra or zam zam al lakazam is going to help him.

    The training is for building up and preparing both the mind and the body for fighting. Like I said earlier, fighting is a sport. Like any sport you must have the fitness, both mental and physical, to do well. Like any sport also, some guys need to train more than others. Because there is natural talent, which guys are born with, and there is also acquired ability, which one gets from training.

    Some guys are blessed with so much natural talent that they can win contests regularly without much additional training. That is no big deal. The point is, if someone can’t appreciate and revere BL so much because there isn’t much hard evidence to back up all those fantastic claims about his super abilities, then that isn’t that someone’s fault, is it? BL has no special god-given right to unquestioning faith in him. That someone chooses to exercise his right to not accept everything about BL – or anybody else for that matter – blindly does not make him a snotty guy or anything like that at all.

  109. Sorry dudes. We live in the age of science, not sorcery. No see, no believe. Hear only, no believe.

    • To bruce lee the man who did so much for the world. And to the snot nose kids with ni name who has done nothing for the world excedpt bass on great people… one ine inch punch is real. U should watch fight scirnce

      • Is hard to type using text, u think martial art is just physical? No true martial artist relied on their mental ability and the ability to push their protential though training, I was winning troohy for completion but does that make me any kind of master ? No it doesnt, I know people who go to the gym every day who cant even fight and some people who dont even go to the gym yet winning fight left and right, the real fight is in the mind, not the technique or the muscle or the speed. Is how smart you are aproaching the fight . Yes those thing help but without the mind u are no martial artist, what I know of bruce lee is the man train intensive day and night literally.. when he was going to honf kong to make a movie he only brought training equipment, most he created himself, this guy was a genius , A real one

  110. Besides, training your arm on a pulling movement, like pull ups or pull downs, does not directly increase your punching force, which would be more related to pushing power. Something you might get from pushups or bench presses. Traing on pulling movements only increases your pulling strength, but not so much your pushing strength, and thereby punching power.

    Ask Evander Holyfield about it. He knows a thing or two about weight training for punching power. He whupped Mike Tyson twice with it, from training under that multiple time Mr. Universe guy, can’t recall his name now. Not Arnold, but the black guy who came after him.

  111. The foundation of all science is testing and measurement. What is MA but a sport? A sport of skill, speed, endurance and power. And a sport is founded on scientific principles. On the laws of physics, mechanics and dynamics. Not on superstition or supernature dressed in scientific garb. Whatever the priests or monks believe notwithstanding.

    So your priest punched 700 lb from one inch. Not even Mike Tyson ever did that, dude. If a physicist or mechanical engineer could convince me that could be done by a human, then I would believe it. Other than that, ya might as well tell me he could levitate himself himself too. Yeah. Gravity has no effect on him.

    Which makes one wonder, how come BL never fought Muhammad Ali or George Foreman then. With his killer 1 inch punch, he would have floored either of them with a single hit. He would have been a multimillionaire many times over.

    Ya can talk about chi, prana and all that stuff until the cows go home. But it’s a sport, plain and simple. The fact still remains then. That Bruce was not tested and proven beyond the screen. Unlike guys like Chuck Norris, Dolph Lundgren and JCVD who had the tournament medals or certs to prove their achievements in the ring.

    My tae kwon do instructor was 49 years old, at least a 4th dan black belt I think, when I joined his class as a Johnny come lately trainee many years ago. He was perhaps about 65 kg (143 Ib) and lean, physically quite ordinary looking, no rippling muscles and all that stuff. But his kick and punch was packed with super explosive power. No, he couldn’t poke right through a telephone book with a one inch punch, and nobody in the whole wide world ever has, or ever will.

  112. Hi my name is Dat, I would like to say that I been taking martial art most of my life, I do shaolin kung fu, wushu, took wrestling, when I was I the military I try to train harder then all the people in my battalion, and I thot I did pretty well, after the military I took up aikido and now back to southern Shaolin, I’m 5’5 tall, and about 125 lb, big people 6 ft tall and weight over 200 lb try to fight me a couple time, I find I can take them down very easily, they underestimate me simply because I’m small, I compare Bruce lee to myself, as a fighter, All my back ground of physical training and intense training, I still couldn’t do 50 one handed pull up like Bruce lee did, or his 2 figure push up,, I can do it with 4 by using both hand, the one inch punch is Awsome, I saw a shaolin priest perform it for a science video and he generate more then 700 lb of force, that’s enough to really kill someone, I believe Bruce lee when performing didn’t use his real power, or he could of kill the man. To me Bruce lee is a true martial artist, anyone can fight, showing self restraint is a lot more impress as being a true martial artist, he also know that life is precious, that why he’s do other thing with his tallent then just hurting people, he dedicate his time in educating people about martial art, I’m glad he did now everyone is Kung fu fighting :) in a peaceful way ;)

  113. Poor empirical knowledge about Lee…. Let’s not make the man a god.. Yet have talked to a few fighters Bruce trained and played with. He had real power, speed and knowledge of fighting and was far ahead of his time. You should of took it upon yourself to train with legit JKD PEOPLE BEFORE JUDGING LEE and Discreting His Martial Arts knowledge and skill.

  114. Sorry, but one post somehow wasn’t enough for me. Someone talked about BL having such a powerful side kick. Now a side kick can’t be that powerful. It doesn’t have the centripetal force of a spinning roundhouse (or reverse roundhouse) kick, due to the centripetal acceleration of the leg and foot. Neither the upper body support of a reverse thrust (back thrust) kick. You’d undertand this if you’d done a bit of karate or tae kwon do.

    Especially misleading is the flying side kick, much promoted by BL in his earliest movies. It looks impressive to a novice. I was always amazed by it in my youth. Before I got into karate and later tae kwon do. Then I knew it was just a lot of bull. The flying does not give the side kick that much additional power, because you can’t fly your body with such great speed. It’s the speed which gives a kick its explosive power. With the side kick you don’t have that kind of speed, unlike like the spinning kick or the reverse thrust kick.

    Okay, you might make a man stagger backward with a strong side kick, like JCVD does beautifully, just from the sheer weight of your own body, but you won’t be able to knock him out with one. Like you could with a spinning kick or a reverse thrust kick.

    As for the 1-inch punch, I’d borrow John McEnroe’s favourite expression, “You can’t be serious.” Leave alone one that punched a hole in a telephone book.

    • Dreamhunter…there is so much misinformation you speak regarding Bruce Lee. Where on earth did you ever get some of this stuff?

    • You have no idea what you’re talking about that a sidekick “can’t be that powerful”. He broke 5 HANGING boards with it, as in no backup (as in check how everyone else HAS to do it to break 5 boards with a SIDEKICK). That’s a **STRIKE**, not a push. Secondly, I remember watching a UFC TUF fight and knowing the fight could end in one second with a good old-fashioned Lee-sidekick due to a fighter’s habits but Jon Jones is the only fighter in the UFC that utilizes it near effective (he doesn’t enter into it well at all though, as in it still has its distinct advantage of distance but a FRACTION of the force that can be generated with form AND momentum from an effectively launched stance), yet he dropped Vitor into guard with it (it’s more about situation and target really, though… apparently for Bruce… with the hanging boards it obviously wasn’t of the utmost *necessity* like it obviously is with everyone else. Or please, if that’s not the case show me another person that can break FIVE HANGING BOARDS WITH A *SIDEKICK*. You know how ridiculously difficult that is) (that’s why you’re discounting a sidekick generally in the first place). But that UFC TUF-guy DID capitalize on the opportunity and did it a la Bruce Lee (penetration/momentum-wise) and guess what?? Ended it instantly JUST LIKE Benny The Jet Urquidez drew him into the corner and did a spinning horse-kick (his variation of the supposed “only kick that can be powerful”. Pfft! What bollocks). Same expression on the guy going down’s face too lol!! Sidekicks CAN be VERY powerful. Still that kick was not as nearly as good and as powerful of a sidekick as Bruce Lee’s full force sidekick (which broke 5 HANGING boards for Pete’s sake! A SIDE-kick!!! That should be an undeniable clue as to the FACT that it was EXTREMELY powerful). Guess what? You’re wrong. It’s easy to think that which you think though because sincerely no fighters really use the sidekick sans for very few exceptions like the couple of instances that I cited. And thankfully Jones doesn’t… well… nm.

      PS, I took TKD and am well-acquainted with the intricacies you attempted to refer to and I (like I said) totally disagree. Find someone who can throw a sidekick correctly, let them hit you, and THEN get back to me. You’re (for many reasons) wrong (hint: you will have a VERY difficult, near impossible time finding anybody truly efficient with a sidekick). The rest of what you said is another matter and I’m not saying anything on that here btw.

      • MysticNinjajay

        The best side kick I’ve seen in MMA has come from Cung Le. Check him out. He’s throws it more often and more accurately than any MMA fighter.

  115. There is only way to verify all this, one way or the other. Have BL fight a few credible actor-fighters in a ring. Not even full-time pro fighters. That would be enough. But of course, you can’t do it now, because the man’s been dead for fourty years.

    Other than that, you could get your best BL videos and compare his moves with the best of videos of other actor-fighters, like JCVD, Dolph Lundgren, Jet Li, Jackie Chan, Chuck Norris, Steven Seagal, and the new crop like Daniel Craig, Jason Statham, Scott Adkins etc. But you have to have had credible martial arts experience yourself in order to have the eyes needed make a credible evaluation.

    There is reverence and respect, and there is genuine honest opinion. If you ask Chuck Norris or Steven Seagal in public what they think of BL, they’d be constrained by protocol, the need to be polite and respectful blah blah blah, and they’d of course be forced to say the best things about the man, because BL is a legendary figure in the martial arts world. He was the man who almost single-handedly revolutionised it – by his pretty choreographed moves on screen and his forceful, engaging, enigmatic, charismatic screen persona.

    But if you ask them seriously, in a private setting, they’d be able to give you an honest opinion. Chuck Norris – with his experience in tang soo do before he moved on to karate – was the man who persuaded BL to learn to execute high kicks when they met at a karate tournament somewehere in America. Before that BL never liked to kick any higher than waist level. Now, that, like it or not, was the honest black and white truth. But if you watch Enter the Dragon, of course you saw BL whupping the white barbarian foreigner big time.

    I have some MA experience myself, karate and tae kwon do mainly, although not that much perhaps, but enough to make a significant evaluation by what I see on screen. Plus I have also fought in a tournament. So I’m not just plucking things out of my arse here.

    Whatever BL was, he was a man. A normal 130 lb man, not a Kryptonite. He would have had the normal constraints of a normal 130 lb Earthling. All right then, he might have stood out among many similar sized men, due to his fantastic commitment and application to intense training, perhaps. But he was not a god of war. Not even a demigod of war. Don’t make him into one. Please.

  116. Great, thoughtful article. People claiming Bruce Lee was ‘the world’s greatest fighter’ are only stating their opinion (a very bloated, boastful one at that), not fact. These people have formed their very own cult and won’t accept rational argument or empirical evidence if it contradicts their opinion. It’s like Julius Caesar said: ‘people believe what they want to believe’. Most people need to idolize someone, no matter the facts to the contrary, those who can think critically and accept reality are rare indeed. Bruce Lee was a great martial artist (that he somehow ‘invended’ crosstraining is ludicrous since pankration existed thousands of years ago in ancient Greece) but his status as a fighter is quite unclear. To make grandiose claims like ‘greatest fighter of all time’ (about anyone) is paramount to showing off your own stupidity since it’s a completely empty statement that can never, ever be verified.

  117. How many people on here has been in a real fight???? Not school yard as a kid, but when one person is beaten to a point of drooling the rest of his life.

  118. I just watched a video of one of the witnesses of the fight which was a student of Sifu Wong. The only things he kept saying about the fight were quotes from Sifu Wong about how hard Lee’s kicks were, how fast his punches were, how fast his kicks were, how fast he moved, etc. There was nothing about how long it lasted or how it transpired. Only that they went to Bruce’s “house”, there was a demonstration going on, the 2 argued, Sifu Wong used his hands, and Bruce used his kicks. It ended up with the man praising Bruce. So this was an account from a witness that was there WITH Sifu Wong. And all he did was praise Bruce and quote Sifu Wong praising Bruce. That leads me to believe that Bruce left some kind of impression on them both.

    I personally believe that the truth is somewhere in between. I don’t think the fight was over in seconds. And I’m pretty sure that it didn’t last for 25 minutes either! I think that it was like the “rooftop” Wing Chun fights. Bruce probably attacked constantly, and Sifu Wong probably evaded constantly. I think it probably ended with either Sifu Wong quitting or a mutual agreement to quit. But the fact is that Bruce was NOT happy with his performance, he was winded, and he spent the rest of his life creating a style that was better. And the reason he did this was because of that fight.

    I am a Shorin Ryu student (I’ll be testing for my black belt in 3 weeks). I have been around the MA’s for over 20 years (with a big gap in the middle!!) I’ve sparred with 7th degree masters that are in the Black Belt Hall of Fame. And I can tell you that one of them is 5’4″, 130 lbs, and he hits like a truck. He’s stronger, faster, and more powerful than me (I’m 6′ 190lbs and strong as hell). So to think that a 130lb man can’t do damage is ridiculous. My best friend only weighs 180, but he can bench press 495lbs. Both of us can break cinder blocks with knife hand techniques. Your physical prowess has less to do with being a good, powerful fighter than your tecnhique and application. Bruce, by all accounts, was very strong- could curl 75lb dumbells in each hand. I can do that, but it is tough. That’s a lot of weight! He could do 1 arm pushups. He could do good mornings with his body weight- try that yourself! He was training bodybuilders because of his knowledge.

    Compare BL with today’s MMA fighters. If Bruce were fighting today, he’d be probably a 135 pounder. He’d be fighting people like Uriah Faber and Renan Barao. Now I like Uriah, but do you think he’d stand a chance against someone that is as strong as a LHW and as fast as a flyweight? Not to mention BL’s legendary dedication to perfecting his art and tecnhique? BL sought out legends of other arts to learn from- a la Chuck and Judo Gene. BL had an obsessive drive to be the best. And given his physical attributes, I’m pretty sure if he’d be alive today, he’d be the best at his trade. If someone like Uriah Faber could be tabbed as the “best in the world”, why wouldn’t someone with the gifts of BL?

  119. Bollocks everything you said was utter bollocks…. esprcislly thay accounts of chuck norris . Bob wall. Ect. Bruce lee was not boxing on the bag.. it qas a 15 secound clip…..the clip was dwcieving.. bruc ehad explosive power… and i can swe that in thw video clearly.. dumbasses like yourself cant… likw i said. Go watch sugar ray robinson… and rocky marciano. Heavyweight world champions hittibg a punch bag in black and wjite video.. then after watch go back to bruce lees video… and you will clearly see power and snap behind those punches.. dumbass youbthink u canbhit better than bruce because you punch the way boxers punch.. pfftt bruce wad not boxing..

  120. What ever happened to listening to instinct by simply observing how someone carries oneself in opposition to others? Does a martial artist need to destroy others to affirm himself? Hollywood “hype” can do nothing to degrade the fact that the majority of people will state Bruce was the best because they instinctively FEEL it to be true.

  121. A martial art is as the name suggests, a type of art. To fight with it is only under some sort of circumstances. Bruce lee chose not to show off his sills because he was that good of a gentleman. If he hadnt died. Would you still be saying his punches are bad. Bruce lees side kicks were so strong being kicked by it felt like being hit by a truck. Well if he hadnt died. But chuck norris did fight Bruce Lee once. As he challenged him in his dojo. Don;t know if this fact is true. But people that “witnessed the fight” say Bruce made Chuck say i lost to bruce lee over a telephone and his black bellt students. All the people badmouthing him are just jealous of him and his skills.

  122. Wow, this discussion went just as I imagined. Everyone is busy looking at an actor/martial artist, while one of the best Martial Artist in the world is walking around currently: Anderson Silva. Anderson Silva is everything that the Bruce Lee fanboys wish Bruce -was-.

  123. Just watch or read comments coming from MA legends such as Jhun Rhee (founder of American Tae Kwon Do), Anderson Silva (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4ehi5fSsCs&feature=relmfu) and Manny Pacquiao (prof boxer) regarding Bruce Lee. If they admire him that much then they see something in him which only proves that he is the real deal. I’ve been a Bruce Lee fan since my childhood days, studied TKD and Muay Thai and been involved in some street fights with knives but I tell you I still admire Bruce. Rest in peace the greatest Master-Student for you will always be an inspiration to everyone not just martial artists and athletes.

    • Yes, they probably grew up enjoying his movies….Seriously, if someone sticks a mic in your face and asks you about Bruce Lee, of course you’re going to say something nice(he is dead after all).
      Lee was a rich-kid child actor who only trained barely 5 years as a teen with a Master, yet he thought that was enough time for him to create his own style(humbly named after himself, of course…) and open up a school. He never fought anyone publicly after that point because he knew it would tarnish his image if he got beaten. He was an entertainer, no matter what the sycophants want believe…
      Not only that, but his “philosophy” is some of the most ridiculous fortune-cookie nonsense I’ve ever encountered- in other words, perfect to market to gullible Westerners who want the “wisdom of the East” with their “Kung-Fu”. Lee was a product of the Hollywood studios- a complete package for young and/or dumb…

      • Actually, much of his philosophy comes from Buddhist tennets – around for many years before Bruce became famous. And the majority of the ones I’ve read are sensible and very Confucian in nature. And Confucius was undoubtedly a very wise man. And humourous :)

        BL may’ve only had five years training (which mostly included private instruction – worth thousands of hours more than once-a-week class lessons, so what does the number of years mean when you’re training with a master?) but he did have some honours – pre leaving school and being shipped off stateside (including being a boxing champ). And the reason he left HK? Beating a triad member to a pulp. Having got into fights regularly with kids of both poor and organised crime backgrounds. So he must’ve got into some fairly decent scraps.

        The fact that BL came from a priviledged background means nothing, so why do you even mention it?

        He may not have been the amazing fighter we all think of him – but that doesn’t mean he was bad. Just sounds to me like you’re a little jealous!

  124. Anybody who thinks Bruce Lee Wasn’t the best Fighter is Completely wrong. Like stated No one seen him get hurt or in a close battle. This is because He would of hurt anybody to easily and because he was a true martial artists and knew when was the right time to fight. Just because He wasn’t retarded and traded blows all days with other men does not mean he wasn’t a fighter. Al Alvir your are an idiot

    • Another Bruce Lee’s nuthugger. Fighters FIGHT.If Bruce Lee didn’t fight, how can one call him a fighter? If I only read about golf, watch golfing videos and starred in a movie where I was to be a professional golfer and discuss about golfing techniques with famous golfers, am I qualified to be called a professional golfer? No, because I haven’t even competed at an amateur level. Same goes for Lee. Bruce Lee’s claims to be the greatest fighter is about as asinine as Kim Jong Il claims to have shot 38 under par on a regulation 18-hole golf course.

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  126. I’m not going to rant like some of the crazy Lee lovers here, but I do have some problems with what your claiming. First, it is a matter of record that Bruce was capable of punching between 5 to 6 hundredths of a second — that’s freaking fast, do two finger one arm pushups (that’s dedication I don’t commonly see even in the best of fighters), and could curl between 75 to 100 lb (can you do that? I strongly doubt it). In other words, he had everything he needed to beat all of the unfit martial artists of his day (just look at Chuck’s body in comparison to his — Bruce was infinitely more fit that anyone I’ve ever seen).
    Finally, the matter of his fights. Bruce was a street fighter that trained in several martial arts. Those that contend Lee’s skill are hardly worth mentioning considering their lack of accomplishments/ physical prowess/ poor records. He did in fact fight a boxer named Gary Elms — and won (so maybe that is his one official record). Lee also fought numerous verifiable challengers (as in police records) and won. It should be noted that in boxing, there are only a handful of moves to learn. Bruce’s JKD was the combination of every combat style Lee learned and consisted of over 200 moves. I think it’s ridiculous when some record obsessed person believes someone has to have a record in order to be considered good — even though real fights are what count. Bruce trained to fight without rules, and often complained about official matches because they had too many rules (which is somewhat funny considering it’s supposed to be a fight). I simplify it to this: show me an opponent that can do every single ability Bruce was capable of (and the most impressive ones are not myths), AND have all of Lee’s intelligence (most fighters are brain dead), and then I’ll reconsider it. In a real fight, Lee would’ve broke Abdul-Jabaar’s shins and stomped on his throat.

    • t, do two finger one arm pushups (that’s dedication I don’t commonly see even in the best of fighters), and could curl between 75 to 100 lb (can you do that? I strongly doubt it). In other words, he had everything he needed to beat all of the unfit martial artists of his day (just look at Chuck’s body in comparison to his — Bruce was infinitely more fit that anyone I’ve ever seen).

      LMAO you are just regurgitating most of Lee’s “so called” Superhuman feat. Let’s say if I just add that : “Record have shown that Bruce Lee would be capable of outrunning Usain Bolt” You guys would just swallow it in a gulp like a porn star.

  127. Comparing Bruce-Lee is like comparing a tiger… A tiger couldn’t care less. Bruce Lee was the one who opened up a view of martial arts to millions across the world, irrespective of the fact whether it was choreographed or not. I think that’s why Bruce Lee continues to live on forever in the minds of each and every enthusiast as a true legend. Without taking away anything from professional fighters or other movie stars, I wonder how motivational they are. That’s what makes Bruce Lee so special.

    I think he would have been an excellent professional fighter if he had chosen to. He had the training, the skills, the physique and the heart of a true fighter.

  128. *sigh* …wow.

    …so, i was googling some stuff, when one thing led to another (you know hwo that goes), i googled “bruce lee real fighter”, and this webpage popped up (page one, top result) …ya’ know, it still amazes me how much misinformation, and vitriol, there still is about bruce lee, 40 years after his death.

    …i became a hardcore bruce lee fan when i was about 9 years old, and since that time i’ve read every book i got my hands on, and watched every documentary i could find …i like to think of myself as something of an amateur bruce lee expert …and yeah, there’s A LOT of bruce lee idol worship out there …but, there’s also A LOT of bruce lee hate out there …and both sides spout A LOT of nonsense.

    …bruce lee was a real fighter (not merely an actor trained in “movie martial arts” like jackie chan) …those who dispute that are simply haters, plain & simple …how GOOD of a fighter was he? well, i guess that’s the real argument …yes; bruce lee was only 5’7″ – 140 lbs. (130 lbs. during the last year of his life when he dieted too intensely) …and yes; there is only so much a guy that size is capable of …funny thing is; benny the jet urquidez was only 5’6″ – 130 lbs. in his prime, chuck norris was only about 5’8″ – 170 lbs., but i never hear anyone crapping all over them the way they crap on bruce lee …the only reason i can figure; because chuck and benny competed in tournaments and have verifiable records …and to that i say; yeah, ok, that’s true, but, so what? tell me one story, just one, where chuck or benny got into street fights, and beat somebody — no gloves, no pads, no ring, no referee, fights where the other guy really wants to hurt you not just win a trophy, fights where the other guy is’nt “fighting fair” or abiding by the rules …i know i’ve never heard any stories about that …but, there are quite a few stories about bruce lee being a real street fighter, stories told by independent witnesses, not just his fans & worshipers (for example: the fight with the extra on the set of “enter the dragon”, witnessed by everyone there that day) …for over 10 years, i made my living as a bouncer, and for most of my teens & 20′s i dabbled in kung-fu (hung gar, wing chun), and lemme tell you, i have WAY more respect for someone who can win a streetfight vs. someone who wins structured tournament fights (i do respect tournament guys, just not as much) …as a kid, yes, i believed bruce to be an unbeatable superhero …i thought because of his extraordinary skills, technique, power, and speed he could defeat the biggest opponents …and i still believe he could, that is, if that guy was a big, dumb, lumbering, unskilled oaf who just stood there (like jesse “the body” ventura used to say; “a good big man will beat a good small man any day”) …and yeah, i’ve heard all the stories about how bruce backed down from a lot of fights …and to that i say; yeah, ok, that might be true, but, so what? …i would bet money that all of you who crow about this are dudes who’ve never been in a lot of fights …because anyone who’s been in a lot of fights knows; after a point, you don’t feel the need to prove anything to anyone, and/or you know what you’re capable of and you don’t want to hurt anyone anymore, and/or he simply hated the structure of tournament fighting and did’nt want to conform to it (BTW: bruce had already beaten wong once, he may very well have viewed wong’s subsequent “newspaper challenge” as nothing more than grandstanding to save face…even wong said in later years he regretted his fight with bruce) …but none of us will ever know for sure, i’m just conjecturing …all i’m saying is; using bruce’s unwillingness to accept certain challenges or fight in tournaments as validation that the guy was somehow less than a “real” fighter, is just ignorance…or drinking too much “haterade”.

    …there’s a truly amazing book i think everyone interested in bruce lee should read: “Bruce Lee – Between Wing Chun and JKD” …it’s by jesse glover, bruce lee’s very first student …he was with bruce during the years he lived in seattle, and he was there for many of the famous incidents as well as some stories you never hear about, and he wrote the book in a very matter-of-fact, honest way, no hyperbole (it’s old & out of print, but you can find it on amazon or ebay, and it’s well wroth every penny) …another really good book is: “bruce lee, king of kung fu”, by felix dennis & don ateyo, 2 british journalists (unbiased) who wrote this biography right after bruce’s death …i know that for the people who have their minds made up, they know what they know, whether pro or con, no new information is going to make a dent — but — these 2 books just might have a chance at changing that.

    PS: gene lebell is a funny old man… in the recent spike TV documentary, he totally craps on bruce lee’s skills & legacy, plus, people often re-tell the same old UNSUBSTANTIATED URBAN LEGEND about how he choked out bruce — but — on his very own website he tells a great story about bruce, talks about what good friends they were, how they often trained together, and how much he respected bruce’s genuine abilities as a real fighter…
    http://genelebell.com/stories.html
    …we gotta remember; gene is an old-school pro-wrestler from back in the carny days, i think sometimes he just slips into his old “heel” character and tries to get some heat, just to amuse himself.

    • SMB You are another Bruce Lee’s nuthugger.
      “all i’m saying is; using bruce’s unwillingness to accept certain challenges or fight in tournaments as validation that the guy was somehow less than a “real” fighter, is just ignorance…or drinking too much “haterade”.”

      If I’m the one whom proclaimed that I am the greatest fighter of all time. Guess what people would do. People will say,”Well prove it”. Bruce Lee didn’t fight AT ALL.Call him an instructor, a a teacher, a film star, an actor, a martial artist or whatever you want, but just don’t call him a fighter because he fights onscreen. Fighters FIGHT,period. If Lee was unwilling to do that, that he’s not a fighter.

      And I believe none of you here have any basic martial arts training to know the errors which Lee wrote in his books , “The Tao of Jeet Kun Do”. Just show it to any fighter in your vicinity and I assure you that even the amateur one could point out the fatal flaw within it.

      Seriously, you people defend Bruce Lee like a group of Fundamentalist Christians defend the Bible. We’ve pointed to you the numerous contradiction in it yet you still refuse to throw away your beliefs about Lee.

      • …and you, suri, are just another bruce lee hatin’ little bitch.
        …you’re a butt-hurt little boy who grew up to realize his childhood hero was just a human being, and now he’s bitter.

        …paste one quote, just one, where bruce lee proclaimed he was “the greatest fighter of all time” …that shit is a straw man argument. (look it up)

        …to say bruce lee never fought “AT ALL”, is just sheer ignorance, nothing more (i guess you have knowledge that ed parker, bob wall, and many others don’t have)
        …and, if we’re all like fundamentalist christians, you’re like those right-wing ideologues who just keep spouting the same bullshit “facts” they get from fox news, no matter how many times they’ve been proven to be bullshit.

        …and i love all of you self-appointed martial arts gurus who assert that they know what they’re talking about and your knowledge is way more correct than everyone else’s.

        …you talk a lot of empirical, definitive shit …since you talk like you know so much, i’m curious …where’s your proof? …what are your sources? …what’s your expertise? …where’d you train? …where’s your school/gym? …who’d you ever beat? (i don’t really care if it’s posted elsewhere, i’m not taking time to click & read other sections, feel free to answer it here, or dodge the question, like most internet-tough phonies & blowhards usually do)

        …oh, wait …i get it …you’re trolling …damn …i should’ve picked up on it sooner …my bad.

    • Well, SMB, the burden of proof should be upon you to proof that Lee managed to beat all of his alleged rivals. Who was Bob Walls and Ed Parkers anyway? Professional Fighters? No,but Joe Lewis was, and he explained that Lee calling professional fighters to his movies as the guys he was supposed to beat up was nothing but to fulfill Bruce Lee’s ego trip.

      • Or was it Joe Lewis who didn’t want his ego stepped on by having to lose to Bruce on screen, something Chuck Norris was willing to do.

    • Here are some details that even basic fans of boxing can point out the flaws in his book:The Tao of Jeet Kun Do.

      Page 29-31 The famous JKD “On Guard” position. This is a strong foot lead Philly Shell, which Lee likely learned from watching western boxing. The Philly Shell is without question the most difficult boxing stance to use effectively, requiring amazing footwork and reflexes. Maybe 10% of fighters can use it and in order to make it work at all you have got to have a bad ass shoulder roll. There is no mention of the shoulder roll in Tao. The Philly Shell without a shoulder roll is absolute suicide. Does anyone in MMA use the Philly Shell. I think not.

      Page 37-39 also 129-131 Show traditional TMA/Kung Fu style blocking and parrying techniques, including the use of open handed blocks against low kicks. Against full power blows this is a sure recipe for jammed and broken fingers and you leave your head wide open. Again, nobody that practices actual combat sports uses this stuff.

      98 describes parrying the lead jab with your forearm. This is retarded. You either slip, pat or catch the jab. If it gets past your forearm far enough for you to parry, you have already eaten it.

      I’m not a boxer,nor am I a fighter. But these flaws was pointed out by many contemporary professional fighters in his time (and still continued till today)

      • You’re right about one thing: you’re not a fighter. It’s suspect to me if you’ve even been in a fight for one thing. And your analysis of the JKD stance and effectiveness of open-hand blocks (really grabs and parrying for the initiated) are incorrect too. Right now I’m looking at a laundry list of championship fighters who use the stance (or a slight variation of it) (read: scientific advantageous defensive-positioning of vital targets and optimal weaponry placement, a HUGE example of one in boxing for that matter) and I am in no way familiar with Philly Shell. Just the fact that you label something so specifically shows your lack of understanding. You seem confused as to what you are looking at and what is is truly saying to do. For one thing – it’s not a hard set of rules (for ANY of it really) (there are things Bruce would do that I absolutely would not dare try) yet you only draw conclusions and make judgments like its 1 scenario all the time period. You obviously don’t get it – a strong lead-foot stance isn’t “suicide” when you are equipped with a myriad of powerful checking/destructive kicks designed to control the fighting measure/ cripple your opponent’s confidence/mechanical ability to operate. You might want to have a decent idea of the difference between boxing, mma (as in sport), and FIGHTING (as in for your basic health and life) as well as the MOST BASIC MO’s of JKD-philosophy before commenting so ardently. Also, you are so absolutely wrong about Bruce Lee’s efficiency as a weapon in real fighting. That said, I can understand how the blind gushing can be annoying. You still aren’t any better though starting from a similar stance of misunderstanding, just on the opposite side of the “allegiance”-fence. Your statement about no one who practices combat arts uses this stuff is erroneous at best. There is less room in pro-stuff (still exhibited in lesser, more “flashing” moments), but PLENTY when being attacked by a posse of thugs. And in the latter, that stuff you threw out speeds up dispatching and clears room to survive the encounter. There isn’t opportunity for landing KO-blows in every instance and it you attempt that you will be overrun. So that shouldn’t be the goal in every instance (especially if you want to limit damaging them). I’ve blocked plenty of kicks open-hand. The only thing that’s ever jammed my fingers has been a-hole “friends” (intentional) and footballs. It’s all about positioning which relates to fight-control, circumstance, and what tool is fit for that instance. There’s a reason why Vince Young was hard to tackle and it relates exactly to that (though I believe with him it was more instinctive than conscious effort). If you watch his old footage and can’t figure that out then you’re even more hopeless than your comments suggest. Those tackles were still good, but steps were taken to negate them, even in windows that seemed impossible (hint: Bruce could do such things in a fight). The same can be done in combat instances, and yes open-hand (again, it’s about positioning, and fight-control, angles, distance, mechanical forces of leverage -mainly- and reading intention, or lack of it out of tendencies, though MUCH OF THE TIME after drawing it out). Page 98 that you referred to has nothing about blocking a jab with a forearm. Unless you have a different page than the rest of us… There are four examples and the only contact is a slight hand-parry to compliment a slip and better penetrate (which btw, the move is entered in at the border of effect, thus negating the potential damage if miscalculated), nothing “forearm” (which btw would only be a typical boxing slip-counter if involved whatsoever, but it’s not). By all means learn, but don’t act authoritative when you can’t even grasp the basics (what you attempt to discredit is used ALL THE TIME in less exaggerated, non-theatrical, forms YES in pro-competition).

  129. to suriamarsuli

    i just cant believe how much of an idiot suriamarsuli is. misinterpreting every statement into hyperbole. bruce lee didn’t INVENT cross training but because of him cross training was accepted by the public. and what you don’t understand is that when someone says boxers wouldn’t stand a chance on the streets, they are referring to the form that boxers take when they fight. they’re very limited to fighting with their fights when most street fights every body part is used. and just how well trained would a boxer be when he’s got a man on top of him pummeling him? again, i’m not saying every boxer is useless on the street. but boxing in general is not very bankable on a real fight. it is an advantage though knowing how to punch and take a punch

  130. booga33@hotmail.com

    COME TO SOUTH HEDLAND DAWGS ILL MESS YALL UP, I DONT EVEN TALK SHIT! I GOT YOU, MY TRAINER COME SEE MY TRAINER LIL DAWG YOU BETTER LOOK OUT!

  131. Suriamarsuli u are a moron the greatest of all time don’t have to fight to prove it martial arts teaches us to be the bigger man there was no one better than Bruce Lee

  132. Leeroy Jenkins

    Good article bro. It is a shame to grow up and realize that all of your childhood heros were basically just human. They ARE amazing humans though. We always want them to be more than they could ever be, and the cash machine always makes them out to be more than they ever could be. They WERE human, but SO amazing, and Charismatic in their performance!

    We grew up on this shit, Arnold, Lee, Norris…. They inspired us to be tough, to stand up for our self, they fueled us. Unfortunately the nerd you sidekicked in the face in 8th grade has a job that pays 200k a year, while you live in a van down by the river trying to figure out if you should use a spin kick or a round house if the police come to kick you out of your “van down by the river”.

    But, we will never bow down to PC nerds. Whip out your numchucks and take this country back!
    ~Ron Paul

  133. Jeremy Vancura is a FAG

    Haaaaaaha. If you invite this idiot to your gym please dont feed him to the wolves. Just send the illiterate phony to me or leave him where he sat. Matter a fact Janine Vanfago could visit 1026 W. 48th St. Los Angeles and ask for my trainer, Vargas. I dont talk shit I just like to go in on these fools and there are a lot of them like this vancura Vanfago. Great site for real fighters. no number to get crank calls. Molina Jr., 17-3.

  134. Jeremy vancura

    If you would like to see what its like to fight with a real fighter I would be more than happy to spar with you… call me or email me 682 5215519… gloves or no gloves doesn’t matter,

    • why you let rage controlling you sir? don’t you know the art fighting without fighting? empty your mind ,be water

  135. Jeremy vancura

    Ing with… and that was just a workout he would 30mins to and hour at a time get hit arms sholders as cut as they were..now everyone how can really fight knows boxing is a sport not made to fight in the streets… I’ve beat many of boxers using same techniques in with Bruce Lee used, and I can also punch harder and faster with a mere Chinese jab than the traditional boxers over hand. Its like any sport some people are ok and some great…

  136. Jeremy vancura

    Well first off Bruce lee believed that most power came the under of your punch and not leaning into it like wing chun fighters are tought… and with Bruce lee being trained by one of the most famous wing chun masters for years, he was very good at what he did.. he didn’t have to injure himself because he made it in movies unlike most people, Bruce Lee went on to study and combine many of the art’s together. In with creating one one first forms of mma…. he had been challenged time and time again and would end up wining… anyone can lose a fight under certain circumstances, but at that point in his life there was no reason to fight… he was wining in life… and the video of him punching the heavybag so if you are a real fighter you would understand how much power he was swing

    • Bruce understood the roots of all fighting and philosophy. Read his damn quotes. An Egotistical, pathological liar, or non martial artists wouldn’t come up with the same philosophy. There aren’t many martial artists that were as curious and acted upon their curiosity to increase their knowledge and expand their minds. He was the most innovative of his time. I first thought he was this “demi-god” of martial artists then read a lot of stories which I was skeptical about and could have been just for pure entertainment and attention but I delve deeper and continue to do so. I am always skeptical but I still believe James Demiles recollections, Dan’s, Taky’s, Jesse’s and his other close friends that I can’t recall right now, until proven otherwise. Just read art of expressing the human body and the tao of jeet kune do. He even says he has found the cause of his own ignorance. He excelled beyond his ego and learned detachment. http://www.cheungswingchun.com/g/1472/the-bruce-lee-training-secret.html

      “I’m moving and not moving at all. I’m like the moon underneath the waves that ever go on rolling and rocking. It is not, ‘I am doing this,’ but rather, an inner realization that ‘this is happening through me,’ or ‘it is doing this for me.’ The consciousness of self is the greatest hindrance to the proper execution of all physical action.”

      ““Let yourself go with the disease, be with it, keep company with it — this is the way to be rid of it.”

      “Bring the mind into sharp focus and make it alert so that it can immediately intuit truth, which is everywhere. The mind must be emancipated from old habits, prejudices, restrictive thought processes and even ordinary thought itself.”

      “The physically bound go for puffing and straining and miss the delicate way; the intellectually bound go for idealism and exotics and lack efficiency and actually seeing into realities.”

      *

      “While being trained, the student is to be active and dynamic in every way. But in actual combat, his mind must be calm and not at all disturbed. He must feel as if nothing critical is happening. When he advances, his steps should be light and secure, his eyes not fixed and glaring insanely at the enemy. His behavior should not be in any way different from his everyday behavior, no change taking place in his expression, nothing betraying the fact that he is engaged in mortal combat.”

      He just used the most efficient and self expressive techniques which also worked with his own body mechanics. READ tao of jeet kune do. He really undetstood the science of combat, mindbody mechanics, etc. Dan inosanto said (I need to find the documentary again) “I don’t know if it’s true but Bruce said he can see himself in the third person. Dan says what do you mean?” He then says Bruce said that he can perceive himself from a birds eye perspective and see all things around him and react to it. Anyways just wanted to add some shit up in this. Before talking shit do more research for instance read his works. Also, anybody get the taky kimura app? which has more accounts and conversations he had. Well I’ll get to it later for a couple bucks on itunes. BLwas pretty ultimate. From my perspective I see BL having the edge over anyone because of reaction time along with insane speed,strength, relaxation and whipping of movements.His head sidekick was instantaneous. Faster or as fast as a flyweight speed jab. Kicking lower would lessen the time to travel to the groin or to make contact to the leg to break or setup for another technique. For some more philosophy shit check out Eckhart Tolle, Osho, Bashar, Uhmm some other guys that are amazing at martial arts youtube adamchan, hlb101, masterwong

  137. You’re mad, but if you wanna check it out, I think you should die and then face him in the heaven or in the hell, then you gonna be beaten so hard that you gonna wander in the nothing

  138. bruce lee was involved in gang fights hong kong. when he went back to hong kong to make movies he was challenge in fights winning every fight every time putting them in hospitals the guy was the real deal. bruce and chuck norris actually trained together. chuck norris even mention how great bruce fighting skills are. and the list goes on. do your research more carefully.

  139. What differentiates a Champ from a contender is just like the content of this article of people all wishing to take some credit using Bruce Lee’s name. Champions live. What directions they decide to take in life, they move on living life to their fullest. Contenders live off others dreams. Bruce Lee inspired many martial artists and many wanna bes. If you were to have a “Family Feud” episode on “Greatest Martial Artists”—Bruce Lee will be in that list; probably as the number one answer. That is all people need to know.

  140. If Bruce lee was only actor, no a fighter, why these, who is interviewing now, didn´t talk before, when they were together Bruce Lee?
    somebody talkes against Bruce lee, But all people work ( trainning ) today like Bruce lee`s references. No??! Sparring! What I know, martial art, who spoke, defended and practiced first, with equipaments etc, was Bruce Lee.
    It`s easy come now, thirty, forty years later, to speak questions against other!!!
    But create new something , Nothing!!!!!!
    Geraldo

  141. OK, people, getting really silly here. What we should be thanking him for is not flashy movies, or heroic might-have-beens, but his approach to training and thinking in a time when it was highly stratified. Think Charlie Chaplin and Jimi Hendrix. Chaplain made the first modern movie. By that I mean it stepped out of the genre formula and had all sorts of ranges. Movies were either comedy, or drama, or history, but you never combined comedy with pathos or action; it just wasn’t done. The movie The Kid had it all. Drama, pathos, comedy, social commentary. He was an innovator.

    The same with Hendrix. There are those that can play better and faster. But they built on work Hendrix pioneered. They didn’t have to start from scratch like he did, they had an advantage.

    I feel the say way about Lee. He introduced cross training at a time when it was very frowned upon, as well as contact sparring and realistic training. He left the realm of martial fantasy behind, and explored combat as best he could given the standards of the time. I think it says a lot that some of the ‘fighters’ mentioned used some of his training techniques and suggestions in the ring.

    As for him being a fighter, I suppose he had some street brawls in Hong Kong, and won the equivallant of a Golden Gloves fight. He is credited with a couple of other incidents, so we know he would have fought if he needed to. As far as the size thing went, well, that will always be a handicap. But, I think he rather saw it as a part of his training. After all, little guys don’t usually pick fights with big guys, it’s the other way round. In that respect, I think he trained to make a good showing against larger people. As for the rest, can’t we respect his accomplishments, and also just enjoy the entertainment? Must those that inspire us always live up to our high standards?

    • “He introduced cross training at a time when it was very frowned upon, as well as contact sparring and realistic training.”
      Cross training began way before Lee’s time.You know Jon Blumming?He started cross training years before Bruce Lee was making movies.And that’s not taking account of sailors/soldier all across the world.These people(Soldiers/sailors) are the real pioneer of the mixed martial arts,because they train and fight to survive in nearly every country they’ve been to and they knew what works and what didn’t.

  142. I like Bruce Lee a lot, but there are limits to how forcefully a guy who was only 5′ 7″ and 140 pounds at best could punch or kick.

    Sound science and physics say so. Ask Dr. Michio Kaku how forceful he kicked. He could probably calculate it.

    Lee was VERY fast, but you would need to be faster to make up for the lack of weight.

    I admire Lee’s athleticism but he would not fool Albert Einstein for the force he produced.

    • Interesting misconception there. Indeed, Bruce was capable (as shown on video) of kicking a 400lb bag to the ceiling. In other words, he could send anyone up to 400lb into the air (there are limits, but they can be compensated by extreme dedication and knowledge). This power is possible due to a few things people aren’t aware of. First, strength is a product of the nervous system, the actual muscle fibers themselves don’t need to grow in order for strength to increase. Therefore, size doesn’t matter (that’s how fighters remain in their weight category while gaining strength). In addition, power is an attribute of a muscle that can be attained through specific training. Power is essentially how quickly one can exert strength. If there are differences and limits that are bound to height and weight, nobody has ever reached their maximum potential.

  143. Bruce Lee did something that changed martial arts forever, he introduced the possibility of studying more than one art. Previously, people defended their art more than they actually ever defended themselves. I remember those days and the conversations were always the same… until UFC 1.

    A Tae Kwon Do practitioner has never come close to winning a fight in the Octagon, wrestlers were beaten to a pulp, boxers choked-out. Only did the possibility of studying multiple arts change the fight game and Bruce should be accredited with this.

    Having said that, I have watched the limited amount of videos of Bruce Lee and after many years of training, have publicly admitted that he really did nothing in these videos that 10,000 other black belts can’t do themselves.

    For instance, the video where he throws a back fist before the man can block it – his back fist was pulled back before it would have even come close to his opponent. If you watch the video closely, his opponent would have in fact blocked it, if Bruce had not pulled it so far from his face. This video is a demonstration of his technique and speed, but it lacked reality.

    Bruce Lee, an amazing person, should be given the monicker of “The Jack Lalanne of Martial Arts” more than “The greatest fighter to walk the earth.”

    Bruce changed martial arts and should be seen as a visionary, a thinker, a great martial artist, but not a fighter. Bruce inspired me to want to accomplish his feats of kicking high, punching fast, his footwork and state of mind, so he must be given credit for that. But he fought no one of consequence that was witnessed by anyone. And I’m not sure fighting an extra or squeezing a ball all the time should be ANYTHING related to being a great fighter, let alone the best that ever walked the earth.

  144. The key words in your comment D.N. Mazumder are “on screen.”

    He can be your hero and your inspiration. Hell, he is for many martial artists, but never lose touch with reality.

  145. D.N. Mazumder

    Well, Bruce Lee will remain in our heats as GOD of fighting: focus on his speed, skills & attitude…….his looks & stances will melt opponents. I will never say that he was the Strongest…..may be not, BUT, on screen, HE EXCELLLED. He reached a cult status that NOT even all fighters on this planet put to gether can match. I can not even think of any one on earth, living or dead, who can match him on camera………….the others are just good human beings. He inspires life of all ages & races more than anyone even today.

  146. “Fighters that were trying to knock Bruce’s head off but he never landed a punch because Bruce was factually known to possess superhero strength and speed. Bruce body was built to lift anything.”

    When you offer anecdotal stories and then claim that in FACT someone has SUPERHERO abilities, you have proven yourself to be either a child or mentally unstable. There are way too many Lee fans who literally sound like they worship him as a god. I’m not sure how there is such a disconnect from reality. Maybe if they stopped watching movies, pulled their head out of the clouds, and really learned the martial arts, they wouldn’t be largely thought of as naive or insane by real martial artists.
    Since I think logically and really practice and cross-train martial arts, I will never fall to believing ANY individual is super human, unbeatable, or without flaw.
    I admire Bruce Lee for the philosophies and training methods have gave to the world and especially to the American martial arts scene. Although I recognize him as one of the greatest martial artists of all time, a fighter he was not.
    He was more a “student-master (his words)” and philosopher. Although I think he could handle himself, notions that he would easily handle any pro MMA fighter or boxer, regardless of weight class, is a ridiculous notion.

    This is a very well-written article. Good work by the author.

    Dylan Morrow, Judo, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, and Kickboxing (formerly TKD) student.
    Iowa City, IA

  147. An interesting point of view but I think you need to consider that a proven record in a boxing ring or in an athletic field is only a proven record in that given field. A boxer for example may fight great in a boxing ring under Queensbury rules but could be torn to shreds in a streetfight. It’s like the argument against the IQ test, an IQ test isn’t really a test of intelligence, it’s a test of how good somebody is at IQ tests. Bruce Lee demonstrated only average Nunchaku skills in Enter the Dragon and earlier movies but his technique in Game of Death demonstrates more complexity. The fact that he didn’t do Nunchaku wrist roles etc in his movies, like modern freestyle doesn’t mean that he couldn’t do them, in fact once you know traditional Nunchaku all the flashy freestyle stuff isn’t difficult to learn (but is pointless in a real fight). The legacy of Bruce Lee and Nunchaku is that he made the weapon popular not that he was the best with Chuks (in fact Dan introduced Bruce to Nunchaku and fighting sticks). The facts that cannot be ignored about Bruce Lee are that he had real streetfights with gangs in Hong Kong, he was taught Kung Fu by a famous Master, he won Dance Competitions, he did fight an extra that challenged him on the set of Enter the Dragon and beat him easily, he trained with many Martial Arts Masters and Grapplers, he was extremely fit and very strong for his size. Linda Lee gives two different versions of the Kung Fu challenge story, one where the other Kung Fu fighter ran away from Bruce and was chased around until Bruce caught him and punched him; following which Bruce was out of breath and another version where Bruce won the fight in a few seconds. In either scenario Bruce won that fight.

    In terms of real fighting, on the streets, no holds barred, Bruce had one weapon that is well documented, his finger grip which he had built a specific machine to develop. In any real street fight his finger grip would probably have been his weapon of choice, applied to the balls, throat or eye sockets. James Coburn also commented that Bruce Lee was squeezing a ball all the time, clearly this was for finger grip conditioning too.

    So ignoring all the flashy movie moves, it’s inescapable that Bruce Lee would have been deadly in a real fight and with his speed/conditioning he would have had little difficulty applying that finger grip. If you doubt me ask somebody to grasp your shirt collar and then role their knuckles into the soft area on either side of your windpipe, see how painful that feels if they do it properly.

    • You are repeating the same myth about Bruce Lee over and over again.I like how you all stated that a boxer would be “torn to shreds” in a street fight.Where do you think most boxers come from? Most boxers come from the streets,where they already knew how to fight to survive.Among them are Bernard Hopkins,Dwight Muhammad Qawi and so on.And to suggest a boxer (or any other martial arts) couldn’t survive in the streets is bullshit.Many instructor have taught them the difference between fighting in a ring and fighting on the streets.

      “In either scenario Bruce won that fight.”
      Nope.The second account had the fight a draw where it lasted about 20 minutes.And this account is more believable to me because:
      1.)Wong Jack Man already had non Asian’s student by the time they fight
      2.)William Cheung,a neutral witness story matched more with Wong’s account than Bruce’s side of story.

  148. We pray to god, God prays to Chuck Norris and Chuck Norris PRAYS TO BRUCE LEE

  149. i agree with you Buffy….Chuck Norris couldnt touch Bruce Lee and yes Bruce Lee only starting incorporating the higher kicks into his arsenal once he and Chuck trained together (remember Wing Chun uses very little high kicks, its more about balance + speed), which made Bruce even better. On filming of Enter the Dragon, an extra challenged Bruce to a duel….this extra was kicked into next week…(account given by James Coburn)…..I’ve seen footage of Bruce Lee punch a heavy bag without gloves….its scary, even more scarier is the running side kick, i dont even think Arnie would withstand that force…

  150. Bruce Lee practiced the “Art of fighting without fighting,.” Bruce is the creator of the whole MMA concept. Bruce was superhero strong and superhero fast. Every fighter that ever fought with Bruce said he was the greatest because he was all about beating you. Bruce wasn’t a tournament competitor so bump that deciding factor. Bruce never lost a fight. Jackie Chan said Bruce was too fast. Bruce Lee was the ultimate fighter. He fought random skilled fighters all the time while he was filming Enter The Dragon. Fighters that were trying to knock Bruce’s head off but he never landed a punch because Bruce was factually known to possess superhero strength and speed. Bruce body was built to lift anything. Bruce did one arm push ups using 1 finger. Who does one arm push ups using 1 finger? Bruce studied all martial arts, boxing (don’t forget it’s a fact that he was his school’s boxing champ), used the best techniques and threw away the rest. Trust me, Bruce Lee is the Greatest Fighter of All Time!

    • I agree Bruce was a genius people always fought with him chellenged him and he would fight to learn what they knew in return…watch the legend of bruce lee produced by his wife its 3hrs long….

  151. Bruce Lee=Jackie Chan. Not fighters. Thanks for good background info.

    • Sonny Crockett

      if you REALLY do your research and speak with people (not just read about them) who knew Bruce, they will Ll tell you to a man, that in the street he could not be beaten. Even Chuck Norris has stated that. Without having to idolize the man, it’s VERY easy to say that Bruce or Jackie Chan (who I know very little about) were not “fighters.”. This usually come from people who lack the skills to REMOTELY come close to them. Once in a lifetime, a person comes along that no-one can compare to, and who changes their “game” forever. Such was Babe Ruth, Sugar Ray Robinson and…..Bruce Lee. We marvel at them for what they could do and we could not. “One in a million,” “Once in a lifetime” and “Absolute genius” are great phrases that describe Bruce, one of the greatest athletes and philosophers of our time. When once asked who would win in a fight, Bruce Lee the movie actor or the real Bruce Lee, the legendary Jhoon Rhee replied: “It would be no contest. The real Bruce Leewould win. He had a controlled cruelty, as he called it and was a merciless and deadly finisher. A very, very good martial artist once scaled the wall of his home in Hong Kong in late 72 to clhallenged him and Bruce was so irate that he beat him up badly and finished him off with a sidekick that sent him almost into the next yard, all within a minute. Bruce was the only man I ever knew who would learn a kick from me and come back within the month doing it better than I. He was the best martial artist I have ever met and my friend.”
      So, appreciate and embrace the greatness.
      RB

      • suriamarsuli

        Keep on harping the same myth again and again,I see?
        Try to actually watch those interview instead of quoting it out of context.Chuck Norris in his live interview about Bruce Lee(you can still see it on youtube) refuse to talk about’s Bruce Lee’s ability as a real fighter.He stated that:”I didn’t want to go there”.Norris and Joe Lewis talked about Lee’s good athleticism,but Roberto Duran also talked about Sylverster Stallone athleticism in Rocky II,still doesn’t make Stallone the best boxer in the world.

        And he ducked a rematch with Wong Jack Man,no doubt.Bruce Lee also LIED about the outcome of his first match by stating that he knocked out Jack Man when a neutral witness of the match (not of Bruce Lee’s or Jack Man entourage),Wlliam Cheung described the match vividly with most of his accounts actually matching Wong Jack Man accounts from the fight

      • “One of the greatest athletes and philosophers of our time.”….
         You must be taking the piss…

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